Episode 19: Creating Freedom Through Course Creation with Natalie Webster

Hello and welcome to the Mum Means Business podcast, where we shine a light on inspiring women who have one thing in common. When they’re not managing tantrums, homework, P.E. kits and play dates, they are busting their gut to create something from nothing, to turn their passion into a thriving business and build a better life for themselves and their families. We dig into what motivates devoted mothers to pursue entrepreneurship and how they integrate their work and family life.

I’m Victoria Phipps, your host, and if you’re an ambitious mum in need of some solidarity whilst navigating the messy middle of making your big dream a reality, then stick around. This is for you.

NOTE: This is the transcript from the original recording, rather than the edited episode so timings may vary.

Victoria (00:01)
My guest today is a photographer, a business mentor and course creator who helps female business owners and mum entrepreneurs get more visible in their business and create freedom in their lives. Having become a single mum to her son at 18, she was determined to stand on her own two feet and build a business that allowed her to provide for her little boy. Fast forward and Natalie Webster had a six figure wedding photography business built from the ground up.

But it wasn’t until she incorporated courses into the mix that she was able to break away from the time for money exchange, which had left her feeling exhausted. Earlier this year, Natalie launched the Rich Life podcast to help other business owners turn their expertise into income with actionable steps, inspiring stories, and proven strategies. As a retired wedding photographer myself, I’ve really enjoyed watching this pivot unfold.

And I’m so pleased to have the opportunity to speak with you, Natalie, about the realities of being a mum in business. So welcome to the Mum Means Business podcast.

Natalie Webster (01:03)
Thank you for having me and that’s actually giving me goosebumps what you just said there.

Victoria (01:09)
well, as I always say, it’s your story. And I’m so interested to hear it in your own words, because being a single mum at 18 in itself is a lot, you know, you’re basically, I don’t know how you feel about it. But I mean, when I was 18, I was a child myself. And that’s a lot of responsibility. When you’re just you haven’t even really had a chance to kind of figure out.

properly what it is that you want to do in your career and your working life and you decided to go into business. So what made you do that?

Natalie Webster (01:42)
I didn’t go into business straight away at 18. There was a few years in between that but I think, you know, I got pregnant with my son Danny who is now 24 so I’m kind of, I suppose, the other side of things which is interesting. I had him when I was 18, three months into being 18, and I thought I was an adult. You know, I’d kind of got to the end of my teenage years and just felt like I was an adult and I think that’s probably…

Victoria (01:45)
Okay.

Well the law says you’re

an adult.

Natalie Webster (02:12)
Well yeah the law says that but you know now

looking back I’m like my goodness how did I do that? Like I look at Danny now and think when I was his age I had a six year old. I’d gone through like the newborn stage, the baby stage, the toddler stage and and I had a six year old so now I am sort of so removed from that part of me now I can look back and go wow like that was quite something but like I said I didn’t go into business straight away I

Victoria (02:23)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (02:41)
For the first year was at home with Danny and then, well he was about 18 months old when I went to college. I went back to college so I did fine art part-time for a year. And then I really enjoyed that. So I went back to college full-time for a year, which was again in fine art, specializing in photography, doing film photography in the darkroom. And then I went on to university to do a photography degree, which then led on to my first job, which was studio manager at ASOS.

which is an online fashion company down in London. And on the side, I was doing my own projects. You I always had in my head, I don’t want to work for anyone. I could never see myself working for anyone. And even when I had that day job, I was still using the lunchtimes, evenings and weekends, and sometimes taking Danny with me to shoots on weekends or evenings, or if it was the school holidays, he would come with me.

because I always knew that I wanted to work for myself, but it kind of felt like a dream that would never really happen. I saw other people out there doing it, nowhere near the amount of people that I see now with obviously the internet being what it is now and social media being what it is. There was, I don’t think there was Facebook back then. There were certainly no groups back then to ask people for help in. There was no Instagram. And it seemed like a dream that I wanted to make happen, but didn’t know how to make it happen. And…

I don’t know if you know the story of me going self-employed, but it was a lot juggling being a single mum commuting out of London to my second day job. So I was at ASOS for two years and then I got a job at Figleafs, which is online lingerie and swimwear. And I was actually commuting out of London. So it literally, the bank balance was going back to zero every single month for all the outgoings, the extra travel, the extra childcare. And it just felt like something I had to give.

And then I did end up handing in my notice on a whim, like I literally heard a voice in my head saying, if your manager’s wearing blue today, you need to quit. And my gosh, Victoria, coming up very soon on the 9th of October is my 15 year anniversary of being self-employed. even though, thank you, it’s a big milestone, but even though I felt like back then I didn’t know how I would make it happen, it has happened and it’s actually happened really well. But that hasn’t just appeared, it’s been like.

Victoria (04:46)
You

⁓ congratulations!

Natalie Webster (05:04)
small action by small action by small action stacked up on top of each other, you know, to actually ultimately get where I want to be. And then you get where you want to be and think, okay, well actually I’ve achieved this. It’s bit like a computer game or, you know, Super Mario Brothers. You you get to the end of that level and you’re like, woohoo, I’ve done it. Okay, what’s the next level? You know, what have I unlocked now? And that’s kind of in a nutshell how it feels, like how my business has felt.

Victoria (05:24)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (05:31)
So I get called lucky now and I get, you know, people saying, it’s okay for you what you’ve achieved, but it hasn’t been one big leap. It’s been a series of very, very small leaps every single day. So yeah, in a nutshell, that’s the story.

Victoria (05:50)
think that’s so common that people only see the big win at the end, don’t they? They see the success that you have now because inevitably you’re more visible because you’ve built that profile. But that profile took a long time to build. Like you say, incrementally in baby steps each day. And also the business, know, what, tell me about the reality of building that photography business when you have

a little boy at home who wants his mum and all the normal stuff, the school pickups and the hour constraints and then working weekends because most weddings obviously happen at a weekend. Is that late nights? What was the reality for you? How do you remember that looking back now?

Natalie Webster (06:40)
So looking back now, I realised that it was a lot. But I think because I had Danny so young and I had such a high level of responsibility so young and lots of things that I needed to do every day, like take care of a child and feed a child every day, it kind of, it’s not like it just happened. It kind of felt normal by the time I got to that point. And I think…

Victoria (06:56)
You

Natalie Webster (07:10)
because I knew that I wanted more from our lives. I was working at ASOS and was getting child tax credit being a single mom living in London. The rent at the time, I think it was like 1,350 or something like that. And it was a lot. So I was getting child tax credit for the first year of us living in London. And bearing in mind at this time, I was earning about 17 and a half thousand pounds. And I…

The child tax credit stopped and I phoned up the tax office and said, what can I do? And she said, it’s your choice to live in London. And it was at that point that I thought, nobody is going to help me. I just need to crack on with it and do this. Like I had already been doing for, how old was Danny when I went self-employed? He was nine. So he was three when I went to university. He was six when I graduated.

and then he was nine when I went self-employed. And I remember thinking, nobody’s going to help me, I just need to get on with it. And I think that’s the mindset that I approached even with, you know, putting in those extra hours, lunchtimes, evenings and weekends, it didn’t feel like such a big ask because I had already been doing quite a lot and I knew that it was up to me. Like basically nobody was coming to save me.

So I knew that if I wanted better, ooh, I feel a little bit emotional about that, but if I wanted better for our situation, it was on me to do that. So I did try and include Danny in a lot of the shoots on evenings and weekends as and where I could. And it’s quite interesting actually, because I’m talking to him at the moment about doing a podcast episode about his experience, obviously coming up to the 15 year anniversary.

Victoria (08:35)
Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Natalie Webster (09:04)
I’ve been talking to him about that and we’ll see. Obviously if he doesn’t want to do that, that’s absolutely fine. But I thought that would be a really interesting way of looking at it. And that’s probably going to be an emotional episode for me because he might say things that I had never thought of or things that he hasn’t mentioned to me before. But like I say, I think because there was no other choice, it just had to be done.

Victoria (09:30)
Did you at the time resent that?

Natalie Webster (09:33)
No, I really enjoyed it. What I resented Victoria is the day job. I really didn’t enjoy the day job. And I resented like the government and the council for not helping me more. Because when I fell pregnant at 17, I got, I phoned the council. They put me on a waiting list for housing. Bearing in mind 17 years old and pregnant. And then I got a phone call. It was actually the week before I left to go to university. When Danny was three, I got a phone call about house.

Victoria (09:37)
Okay, yeah.

Yeah.

Natalie Webster (10:02)
And I remember saying to them, what do you think I’ve been doing with my child for three years living under a bridge, you know? So again, that’s why when it got to the point of hearing from the tax people that no, we’re not going to give you any child tax credit, you’re in this on your own, it’s your choice to live in London. I just thought, I have to do this. And it didn’t feel like a pressure. It was just like, okay, this is what I need to do. And I just kind of got on with it.

Victoria (10:06)
Yeah, exactly.

Natalie Webster (10:30)
But I didn’t resent the extra hours because that’s what I really enjoyed doing. I loved being a mum and I loved the photography. So back then I was doing a lot of fashion photography. But the thing that I resented was the day job. I felt like it was a limitation.

Victoria (10:48)
Yeah. So do you think that you had a sort of compulsion to build and to create and you needed that autonomy in order to create the life that you wanted? Did you have it firmly set that it absolutely wasn’t going to be you going into a job and working nine to five?

Natalie Webster (11:14)
So I always knew that I didn’t ever want, I didn’t ever really want a nine to five, I didn’t really want to answer to anybody, I didn’t want those limitations of a nine to five. But I didn’t ever really think that it would actually happen. And even now, 15 years in, sometimes even now I’m like, my goodness. Because when you’re self-employed, you’re magicing money out of thin air, aren’t you? And I never really thought that I could do it, but.

Victoria (11:34)
I suppose.

Natalie Webster (11:42)
The reason that I share my story, a lot of my story now, is to show other people that it is possible. If you don’t want the limitations of a nine to five, if you want things to be easier, if you want to follow your passion, whatever your passion is, whether it’s photography or being an artist or whatever your passion is, you can make money from it. You can make a good amount of money from it and earn a living from it so that you don’t have to have the limitations of that nine to five if that’s what you.

you know, what you don’t want your life to look like.

Victoria (12:15)
It sounds like, I mean, you had the advantage of youth. And I do think there’s something in us when we get older that we do have a greater sense of like all the things that we could lose. And particularly you think about, mean, I’m interviewing women in their forties who have suddenly decided having had 20 plus years in a corporate career that actually they do want to take that leap and start something new, create a business that’s going to work better for them.

And that’s hard because you have a big salary that you’ve become accustomed to. You have a sense of security in that job. You’ve built a position in your role. You’ve got the expertise. And actually there’s something about being as young as you were that you kind of did have nothing to lose. And you’ve got this little boy looking at you like, mom, I’m hungry. And you need to look after him. And do you think that was an element that you kind of, cause it sounds like you didn’t really have much fear.

You know, you have this whim, you’re gonna go and hand in your notice and you’re gonna take ownership over your own destiny. And there’s no sort of, did you feel imposter syndrome about starting a photography business? Did you feel, because you’d already been working as a photographer, but weddings is a different thing to fashion. So do you think that being so young helped you in that sense?

Natalie Webster (13:35)
think it probably did and I think that in November 2023 I was diagnosed with ADHD and I’ve always taken risks. I’ve always thought I would rather do it and see what happens than regret it. So I’ve always been a risk taker. I’ve always thought I’m just going to do it like I did when I got pregnant with him at 17, had him at 18. I was like, right, well, let’s see what happens here. And then when I went self-employed, I was like, huh, okay, let’s do it.

because I thought, okay, well, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll get another day job. And back then, imposter syndrome was something that I had never even heard of. I think it’s definitely become more of a thing that people have as part of their identity sometimes because of social media, because we understand it more. And that’s also been true for me in learning more about several aspects of ADHD, which I know now that risk taking is a big part of having ADHD.

I think that that was the biggest thing that I, I don’t want to say fearless and I don’t think that it’s that I didn’t have anything to lose. Cause I suppose in a roundabout way, I had everything to lose being a single mom living in London. You know, I could have lost the house. I could have not found another day job. might have, you know, I don’t know what would have happened to Danny, but I just, think the main thing is that I didn’t give myself a choice. I was like, I’m going to make this work. And I think it’s that.

tenacity and that determination that’s got me to where I am today. And I didn’t even really have any goals in those early days. I was like, this is what I enjoy doing. This is what lights me up. This is what I love to do. And if I could make a living from this, then that would be incredible. And that’s that I suppose that was the driving force. And yes, there was that massive rent from London. So I suppose that that was.

the main driving force, okay, I have to pay the rent this month, how am I going to make it work? So it’s looking at that problem and going, okay, this is what I need to achieve or this is the problem that I need to solve and then working backwards from that, how am I going to make this work?

Victoria (15:47)
Okay, so take me through how you made that work. What did it look like to build your wedding photography business?

Natalie Webster (15:57)
So in the early days of being self-employed, I was a fashion photographer. So for like the first four years I did fashion and that was, I don’t want to say easy, but because I was already in the fashion industry, I’d made lots and lots of contacts. So I started at ASOS when they had one studio running two or three days a week. Fast forward two years later, they were opening their sixth studio running six or seven days a week. And the growth within the company over those two years that I was there,

was absolutely huge. Like most Fridays we would stop early and have champagne because they were celebrating some milestone. And because of that, because of the growth, because the business grew so quickly, everybody who was starting in the company came through the photography studios to get their headshots for their passes. So I did all those headshots in the studio. So I got to know everybody and make lots of connections. So when I did finally go self-employed, I did have that bank of…

I suppose actually Facebook did exist then, yes, because I messaged people on Facebook and said, I’m going self-employed if you need a photographer. And because ASOS had grown so quickly, it meant that people were getting headhunted from ASOS. So by the time I came to leave, Figleafs, so I left ASOS, started at Figleafs and was there for a year. By the time I left Figleafs, a lot of the people that I had met at ASOS had also left. So I just messaged them.

maybe on LinkedIn, but I think probably Facebook. And just messaged them and said, I’m self-employed now if you need a photographer. And that actually got me bit of a foot in the door with a lot of companies. I shot for Tesco, I’ve shot for, lots of the different fashion companies out there. There’s what, Net-a-Porter. I don’t know, I can’t think off the top of my head. I haven’t thought about that for a very long time. But essentially I already had those contacts there.

Victoria (17:45)
You

Natalie Webster (17:50)
And I think that comes down to just being a kind person. I help these people who are new in their jobs get great photos, feel comfortable and look great in their photos, as well as being welcoming and friendly. you know, I think that’s kind of testament to what I’ve built. It’s just by being myself and by being kind and people remember you. So I was getting booked through people that I had met at both Figleaves and at ASOS. And then…

those same connections, then those people started to get engaged and they started to get married. So the first number of weddings I was doing alongside being a ⁓ fashion photographer for my fashion contacts until, I think I did that for about four or five years, until it got to a point where I found it really hard to juggle both businesses because they were very different tones of voice, very different client bases, and I was not marketing at all because

I didn’t understand marketing back then. My marketing strategy was have a website and then message people that I know. That was literally it. It worked. It worked at the time. Yeah. So then the fashion photography kind of led into doing wedding photography. And like I say, that’s a lot of the early weddings with people that I knew. And also because I’d been an established fashion photographer, I was getting my work featured on

Victoria (18:53)
but it works at the time, so that’s fine.

Natalie Webster (19:13)
on Roll Bride, on Love My Dress, on Rock My Wedding. So that was doing the marketing for me. And that was really a big marketing strategy in the early days, was getting my work featured on those blogs. Yeah.

Victoria (19:23)
Yeah, absolutely. Those bugs were everything. I remember it very, very well. It’s like, as

soon as you edit a wedding, you’re like, package it all off and send it to all of these places. But it worked because Google was, you the competition was not what it is today. And Google was, I don’t know, something about it. It was much simpler. You know, you could literally blog something with the right keywords and get an inquiry for that exact thing the following month. Yeah. Yes.

Natalie Webster (19:30)
Yes, yes.

my gosh, life was simpler then Victoria, wasn’t it? Social media for sure.

Victoria (19:50)
Yeah, on the whole, yes. Yeah, they were the glory days. ⁓ So, okay, you’re building that, it seems like it was very organic, this whole evolution in those early days of your photography business, but you’re settling on weddings. And at what point did the education element come into the mix? And why did you decide to start incorporating that? Because, I mean, as you said,

back in the early, early days, there wasn’t much education around, you know, starting a business. There certainly wasn’t when I began photography, sort of 2009, there was no education on how to start a photography business or how to take, you know, none of that existed and now there’s so much of it. So what made you decide to start incorporating courses and education into your wedding photography business?

Natalie Webster (20:46)
So there was no education around for me either. And the first kind of, I suppose, dalliance into education was I went to one of the Way Up North events in Sweden and found that really interesting. And it was, it very much was what precepts you use, what’s your favourite lens, that kind of thing, very kind of photography based. And I think that must’ve been around 2015 perhaps. So I’d been self-employed at that point for five years.

And then I think it was in about 2017 or maybe 2018, I went to an event by Chris Ducker called Youpreneur and that was all about marketing. I like literally my mind was blown. I was like, my goodness. I am playing so small here by just learning about presets and spending all my money on lenses. I felt like I was playing really, really small. So I started to learn about…

the marketing side of things. And that not only had a really, it must’ve been 2017, I think, because that had a really positive effect on my own business. And then in 2019, 2018, oh my gosh, it’s been a long time. There’s a lot of years. So I think you, I think way up north must’ve been 2015. Youpreneur must’ve been 2016. And then in 2018, I started to think, okay,

Victoria (21:58)
It’s all a blur.

Natalie Webster (22:10)
I have learned a lot about marketing and business. I’m doing really well in my photography business. I can help other people. And I remember thinking, like, I really want more. I’d kind of, I feel, I suppose a little bit like a hermit crab. I think I mentioned this to somebody a few years ago. I felt like a little bit like a hermit crab that had kind of outgrown. And I started to feel really uncomfortable. And it was like, okay, so what’s the next step? What’s the next level? You know? And I started to think,

I want to earn more money, but I don’t know how. I felt like there was a ceiling on how much work I could realistically take on. And I’ve always been fully booked. My version of fully booked. And I wanted to help more people as well. And I started to learn about courses. So I did a course about courses. And at this point, the online education world was starting to take off. And I was doing a lot of learning about marketing, about business, about…

Instagram about, you know, creating your own courses as well. So I was doing a lot of investing and learning myself and getting the results because I took the action. And then I was getting lots of people asking me, how are you doing this? How are you, you know, you’re doing really well. So anyway, I put my first course together in early 2019, which was how to ace group shots. And I always thought I would put together a course about Instagram.

because I was doing well on there, I got asked about it a lot, but I also got asked a lot about my group shots. So that’s the first course that I put together and it did really well. I made like over 10,000 pounds from that within the first six months without doing a proper launch, without having an email list, just through sharing it on my social media, on my Instagram, pretty much. And that did really well. Then in 2020, we all know what happened to weddings in 2020.

But I switched up my marketing because I had previously learned about marketing and about business. I switched up my marketing strategy that year and still got quite booked and did really well. So people were messaging me saying, how are you still getting bookings? Like I’m here drinking gin in my garden with a bounce back loan. How are you still making a decent amount of money? And it’s because I switched up my marketing strategy and put out what I knew people needed to see it that.

Victoria (24:20)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (24:31)
point and just got very strategic and intentional with the work that I was sharing. So I put together my first kind of business course, was caught and I called it very imaginatively five week group mentoring program. And I just, I squeezed so much into that and I charge a crazy low price. I think it was like £199 or something. Cause I also understood at that time that a lot of photographers were struggling, but I really wanted to help them. So I

Victoria (24:46)
Hahaha! ⁓

Natalie Webster (25:00)
put loads of information in there and a really, really low price point and helped other people, but with their marketing as well. And then in 2021, that’s when I really started to properly focus on the education side. So 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2024 were my busiest years doing wedding photography because of all the post moments, but they were also the busiest years creating courses as well.

They were the years that I created my Success Accelerator course. So that five week group mentoring programme, I made it much, much bigger and it’s called Success Accelerators. That’s my business and marketing course for photographers. I also put together Wedding Photography 101, which is everything I know about the photography side of being a photographer. So they actually pair really well together, the business and marketing for photographers and then the photography course.

And then there’s also a number of other courses that I’ve put together as well. Again, over those busiest years, 2021, 22, 23, and 2024, I actually was really ill. I was ill for a lot of the year, I think because of the burnout from being so busy for so long. And I decided actually back in 2022 that I was gonna start scaling back. So 2023 was my first year to scale back. Supposed to be…

20 weddings, I think I did 26. The next year was supposed to be 15 and I think I did 18, 18? I can’t remember. I don’t know, anyway. And then last year I was supposed to do 10 and I think I did 16. So again, I’ve always been my version of fully booked with weddings and then found the time to create the courses alongside. But last year for me was a real turning point because my health was not good for the whole year. My health…

was not good and I turned 42 last year and I just thought how, what am I going to do? Like this isn’t sustainable for the long term. So I made another really hard decision, which is the pivot that you’re seeing now this year is to scale back even further on the wedding. So I’ve got a handful of weddings this year, but I haven’t marketed for gosh, about 18 months now. And I’ve put together a course about

packaging up your knowledge, monetizing your experience, which is called rich course creator. So it’s essentially, I mastered the wedding photography side of things and put together, like I packaged up that knowledge for other photographers. And now I’m packaging up the knowledge for packaging up your knowledge to help other business owners. So it’s a little bit like Russian dolls, isn’t it? Or a little bit like Inception or something, but it’s helping people with what they need help with. And I think more than that,

It’s sharing the knowledge, the things that have really helped me that have been life-changing for me and my own family and my son and my now husband. I met my husband when Danny was 18 and he’s really helped me with the courses side of things as well because he’s been ⁓ like a driving force and saying, you can do this, come on, get this done. And that’s, I suppose, led us to where we are today.

Victoria (28:21)
amazing.

I mean, it’s quite something, I think. And I’m going to bring myself into your story. Because I’ve thought about this and I am aware of course creation. I think I kind of missed the COVID wave because I was busy having babies and whatnot when online courses were kind of brand new and obviously everybody’s locked in their homes.

And so people are looking for information online. You can’t access any face-to-face education or mentoring. And that was probably where it really sort of accelerated. And I’ve thought about this because again, I’m a photographer who started a similar sort of time to you. So I’m coming up to 16 years, although I had a little break in there and I’ve learned loads, like you’ve learned an awful lot. And I’ve thought about courses that I could create.

But I haven’t done it because I just, think, well, there’s people that know a lot more about it than I do. And this is your resistance here. So when you’re talking to people, you must come across this a lot. And it’s not, it’s, you know, it’s not a kind of, it’s not a…

Natalie Webster (29:34)
yes.

Victoria (29:39)
fear necessarily. I mean, it may be but I’m not generally risk averse. I I do things when I want to. I’ve started this podcast, which was kind of a bit random, but you know, something like you said, you know, I want to do it. So I’m going to do this. I don’t generally suffer a lot with kind of risk aversion. But the imposter syndrome for me on course creation is enormous. And did you feel any of that? Or did you think no, I know stuff and I can

can help people, even if they’re just a couple of steps behind me, can help them.

Natalie Webster (30:10)
So yes to both those things. Firstly, I was like, I have achieved this result for myself, so I know the steps to teach somebody, but I also felt a lot of imposter syndrome. So interesting Victoria, the first course idea I had was about Instagram. I think at the time I had about 6 or 7,000 followers on Instagram, and I thought my first course would be about using Instagram for your business.

Victoria (30:12)
Okay. ⁓

Natalie Webster (30:36)
And when I asked my audience, overwhelmingly, they said, we want a course about your group shots. And the reason that I went for that is firstly, that’s what the audience were wanting. But also, I couldn’t find another course about group shots out there. And the reason that I ended up putting that together as my first course is I thought, if there are other courses out there about this topic, why would somebody buy my course?

Why would they buy my course if there are all these other courses out there from people who maybe have, you know, 8,000 followers or 10,000 followers or whatever it is. So I chose my first topic as a course that I could not find any other trainings or courses out there about because I did have that imposter syndrome. But here’s the thing. This is what most people don’t realize. It’s not when you’re putting the course together, it’s not about you.

Victoria (31:22)
Yeah, and it’s also, yeah.

Natalie Webster (31:33)
It’s not about you, it’s about the people that you can help. And in not putting your course together with your stories and your experience and your knowledge and everything that you’ve gone through to get that result, and in not putting it together in the way that only you can teach it, you’re doing people a disservice by not offering that course.

Victoria (31:57)
Yeah, it’s a very powerful mindset shift. And I think I’ve heard you say that on your podcast.

Natalie Webster (32:04)
Yes,

I have a whole episode about the mindset shifts for creating a ⁓ profitable, successful course and I do talk about it in that episode.

Victoria (32:13)
And do you think that mindset is the biggest problem, is the biggest barrier or hurdle to leap over when people are thinking about this? Because we’ll come onto it. I would like to hear, know, to what extent do you feel like incorporating courses into your business has changed the game for you? But so many people have these ideas in their head, perhaps, of a course they might like to create.

especially I suppose when they’re sort of later on in their career, you know, in their 30s and 40s, 50s, whatever it might be, and you’ve amassed a certain amount of knowledge and you are an expert in your field. But that mindset, you know, there are so many gremlins ready to sort of creep into our heads and be like, who the hell are you? Who do you think you are making a course? And I don’t know what it is specifically about teaching. And do you think…

That that is, mean, you now sell courses to help people create courses, as you mentioned, that that is one of the most powerful areas of resistance that you have to kind of talk people through when you take them on that, that transformational process.

Natalie Webster (33:19)
Yeah, so you mentioned that, do I think that mindset is the thing that holds people back with creating courses? I think that mindset is the thing that holds people back with doing anything in life because we put those limit, you know, those limiting beliefs, they’re either things that we’ve learned or things that we’ve told ourselves over and over, or things that have been with us since we were children, you know, especially in our generation, it’s that.

Victoria (33:30)
Yeah, you’re probably right.

Natalie Webster (33:45)
and being in the UK, which overall has a scarcity mindset anyway, it’s growing up with, money doesn’t grow on trees, you need to work hard to get a good job. And it’s having that instilled in you that you need to be putting in the hours and putting in the graft to earn a decent living. So it’s taken me quite a lot of years of unlearning beliefs and relearning a different way of thinking about…

how I can monetise the effort that I put into my business. And it’s not about working harder. You know, thinking back to when I got into courses, it was like, how do I earn more money? I’m at my capacity for how much I can charge. I’m at my capacity for how much work I can take on and still spend time with my family and still, you know, see my son. And it’s about working in a smarter way and doing it in a way that you’re also having a bigger impact and helping more people.

Because let’s say you’re a course, sorry, not a course, a coach, and you’re taking on one-to-one clients, and you can maybe take on, I don’t know, let’s say an average of 15 to 20 one-to-one clients a week. Well, if you, and generally people are, and I did start mentoring before I went into courses, and what I was finding is that people were asking the same questions over and over, so I was kind of repeating myself over and over, and whether you’re a coach or you’re a photographer or whatever industry you’re in.

If you’re working on that one-to-one, like the one-to-one business model, if you package up that knowledge, you can sell it to a lot more people. So it’s about reframing it and stepping out of your limiting beliefs. And I have mindset work in all of my courses because I 100 % know that that’s the thing that holds a lot of people back. It’s imposter syndrome, it’s comparisonitis, it’s thinking, who am I to do this?

Do you know what, did you see my, put up a reel on my Instagram yesterday and it said, I created my first course thinking who on earth would want to learn from me and here’s what happened… dot, dot, dot. I literally put it up yesterday. I mean, it’s gone quite well. ⁓ And I feel like I’m just getting started. And I think it’s because of, again, especially our generation, because of how we’ve been brought up and the things that

Victoria (35:48)
Yeah, no, I haven’t seen that, but I will go and check it out because I feel like I know what happened now.

Natalie Webster (36:08)
parents have told us or society has told us it’s work hard and you can have a good life. It’s relearning that there is another way, that there is actually a better way for both you and your family and all the people that you can help through monetizing that knowledge.

Victoria (36:25)
And there must be a lot of money mindset stuff in there as well. Like you said, this sort of, which leans into the kind of tradition of time for money exchange. You clock in, you clock out, you’re paid for your hours. And there is this idea of, you’ve got to have a good work ethic. You roll up your sleeves, you work hard and you’ll get your reward. And actually, there’s something, is there something in a kind of British mentality?

that feels like if you’re not seen to be putting in a lot of hard work. And obviously the thing that the ironic thing about passive income is it’s not entirely passive. There’s a lot of front loading of effort that goes into actually creating that course. So it’s not like it’s workless. There’s an awful lot of work that you put in and then it’s just about rolling it out and that kind of rinse and repeat to help as many people as you can. But do you think there’s something where,

Natalie Webster (37:04)
No. Yes. Yes.

Victoria (37:23)
British people kind of think it’s a bit obnoxious to just kind of lounge about and get a ping on your phone that you’ve sold a course for 100 quid.

Natalie Webster (37:31)
So I’ve now been watching a lot of course creators all over the world for a number of years now. We’re talking probably what about five or six years at least. And in short, yes, there is something about the British mentality over people in the US or in Australia or do you know what? Ireland actually have a fantastic mindset about self-improvement and growth. I get a lot of people from

Victoria (37:44)
Okay.

Yeah.

Natalie Webster (38:00)
Ireland and also Northern Ireland by my courses, which is quite interesting.

Victoria (38:03)
Well, they all went

over to America and so that’s probably all makes sense. They kind of colonized America and took their positive attitude with them.

Natalie Webster (38:07)
maybe. Yeah, possibly.

Possibly, but I think that also translates into the photography industry. If you think about photographers who are based over in America, they charge a much higher rate. People have a lot more shoots. There’s mini shoots like full shoots and senior shoots and newborn shoots. And there’s the fresh 48 shoots. There’s so many different shoots that they have over there. Whereas here, it’s seen as vain to…

have photographs of yourself taken, let alone displayed in your house, or it’s seen as an unnecessary expense. So there definitely, definitely is a scarcity mindset in Britain.

Victoria (38:45)
Yeah, it’s all the same. It’s

totally, and I obviously come up against this because I still do family photography work. And it is seen as a sort of a terrible self-indulgence to pay someone to take your picture and then put it on your wall. But I think it comes back to a kind of, you know, I could quote L’Oreal, you know, because you’re worth it. And I think…

Natalie Webster (39:01)
But it’s not terrible, it’s not terrible.

Victoria (39:10)
It’s a very complex national mentality that we found ourselves stuck in where we all feel like everything other than sitting down with a cup of tea is indulgent. know, anything above that, know, spa days are a bit indulgent. Everything’s a bit indulgent. And I think there is a challenge there that perhaps I can imagine there’s a challenge for you that perhaps in other countries they don’t face.

And do you think that when you put your messaging out, obviously a lot of it is about that transformation that courses have brought to your business and this freedom factor that you’re able to work flexibly and choose your hours. And sometimes you are at the spa relaxing and you’ve made some money at the same time. And do you find

like you said before, there are people that come to you and say, ⁓ you know, it’s all right for you. What do you do about that? Because I disagree with that wholeheartedly. And I can definitely looking across the whole span of your story, and it comes across in your podcast, see that there is a lot of graft in there that has got you to where you are now. But do you think that’s a hurdle for you to overcome?

when you’re trying to help people to understand the life that they could have if they invested the time to create a course with their knowledge.

Natalie Webster (40:34)
So, yes, one of the biggest, I don’t want to say struggles, I suppose objections that I find that I need to help people overcome is investing. So pair that scarcity British mindset with a poor, starving artist mindset of photographers. It has been a challenge and I feel like for so many years I’ve been like.

Victoria (40:53)
god yeah of course, throw that in.

Natalie Webster (40:59)
this really will help you and that’s why I share a lot of my own journey and my own story is because despite the odds, despite all the struggles and being a single mum and doing it single-handedly, I’ve achieved what I have achieved. So that’s why I share a lot of my story and thankfully I don’t really get that many crappy comments from people other than, other than I just started running Facebook ads and there’s been some interesting comments on there.

Victoria (41:18)
Yeah, good.

Natalie Webster (41:27)
I will say all from male photographers who, you know, I’m looking at it objectively, they don’t know my story, they don’t know what I’ve gone through. I might just be a scammer, which by the way, I’m completely, completely not. I literally am so honest. I think as well as the ADHD, I probably also have elements of autism as well. I haven’t gone through a diagnosis for that yet, but I can’t lie. I feel.

Victoria (41:42)
You

Natalie Webster (41:53)
terrible if I lie. anything that I ever say is the complete honest truth because I just don’t know any way otherwise. I just want to be kind, I want to be helpful and I need to tell the truth. So in fairness, the people commenting on the ads, they don’t know the story. But I’ve had somebody, it was in a photography group actually, a male photographer said, if you’re so busy being a photographer, how do you have time to put these courses together?

And that’s what my, I’ve got a podcast episode out today about that. And it literally is like, this is how I did it. And it wasn’t easy, but I wanted to make it happen. So I made it happen. And there’s, there’s that saying, isn’t there those who can do those who can’t teach? Well, I want to throw a spanner in the works with that. And it’s like, those who can teach, they do. And they teach. I literally have.

Victoria (42:22)
Okay.

Yeah, and

Natalie Webster (42:47)
got, mean, even here on my desk, like I’ve got so many calendars and I’ve had wall calendars up in my office, which I often share on my stories, I suppose, as a way to justify, yes, I am busy in my business and I can also help you. And I’ve also been very open and honest about I am scaling back from weddings. In fact, I’ve been honest about that for the last sort of three years since I started scaling back that I am scaling back and taking on less weddings. And I think in multiple…

know, multiple places, my email list, my social media, my stories, the podcast now that I’ve got the podcast. I say I’ve been scaling back to put more time and effort into the courses, to update the courses, to make them better, to make my content better. So I suppose in a way there is that need to justify what I’m doing with my time, which is interesting, isn’t it?

Victoria (43:39)
But you know what, it all makes me a bit cross. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say that that chap wouldn’t have commented like that, had you been a man. Yeah, it wouldn’t have occurred. And the fact that you have done all these things whilst raising your son and…

Natalie Webster (43:49)
If it was a male photographer, yeah, yeah, I totally agree, yeah.

Victoria (44:04)
You know, people don’t see all of that graft, as I said before, that goes into it, that builds up to getting you to this position. And as you say, you’re just starting, you know, you haven’t finished. And the reason that you want to scale back weddings, you know, you have also, have done your, you’ve played your part. You’ve been a wedding photographer for years, for years. You know, I shot weddings for 11 years and the most I ever shot one year was I think 36 and that year nearly killed me. It’s a really physical job.

Natalie Webster (44:21)
my God, massively, yeah.

Victoria (44:34)
and I’m not far behind you, I’ve just turned 40, and I could not see myself carrying these big bags around with all of this kit, you know, into my late 40s and 50s. I didn’t want to. And I think that’s absolutely fine, and it’s your choice, and it’s not for anybody else to judge your choice. And also you found something that has allowed you to evolve in your business that you’re interested in, you know, that you’re able to impart that knowledge. That is the way of things historically.

You know, the people, you know, the children and the early adults need to learn. And then in the middle part of your life, you’re doing. And then, you know, towards the latter part of your career, you can teach because you’ve built all that experience. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. And it’s a shame that you feel like you have to justify it. And I think it’s none of his business and he should just pipe down.

Natalie Webster (45:28)
I did just delete the comment, which is linking back to when we were talking about mindset, because in the past, I would have spiralled. That would have massively made me spiral. I’d have probably deleted all of my ads. I’d have probably gone quiet on socials for a while. But that’s part of my RSD, my rejection-sensitive dysphoria with having ADHD. Now I’ve been diagnosed. I understand the triggers and my responses a lot more. And in doing a lot of work on that.

Victoria (45:31)
Hahaha!

Yeah.

Natalie Webster (45:58)
through therapy, through working on the limiting beliefs and all of the things, it now didn’t bother me as much as it would have done a year ago, 18 months ago, two years ago. So I did just delete that comment. And while I think it’s unnecessary, that’s also why I share a lot of my story because I think if somebody is gonna actually write that, then other people might be thinking about thinking that. And I don’t ever wanna be misunderstood or…

anybody to think something that I’m not, which again, there’s a lot of limiting beliefs still there about other aspects of childhood, which we do not have time for that today. ⁓ But there’s a lot of things that I, interestingly, just before we came onto this podcast, I was talking to my husband because I’d gone out this morning, I’m running a marketing day in like a month actually, in a month, running an in-person marketing day. And then I went to a shop and I got like a

Victoria (46:37)
Hahaha!

Natalie Webster (46:56)
Tumbler like a water tumbler thing my husband was like if you bought a new water tumbler and I’m like yes because and that because then led on to why I’d bought that and he was like why are you justifying it? I was like hmm interesting I don’t know why am I justifying it and if I’m finding the need to justify buying a water tumbler you can imagine the need to justify this is why I’m running my business the way that I now am and actually I have always been very busy photographing weddings

Victoria (47:15)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (47:24)
whilst also putting the courses together because I genuinely do want to help people. But aside from anything else, the main reason is I now have a husband. You know, we’ve talked earlier in the episode about me having Danny Younger when I was very young and he’s obviously, he’s an adult now. He’s saving up to buy his own house and I don’t see him that often because he has a job. He teaches guitar as well as his day job.

plays in a lot of bands, he’s very, good at that. He also likes to go and climb mountains, that’s what he does for fun on a weekend. So I don’t see him very much anymore. And I wish that I’d known these things when he was younger. So that’s why I’m also passionate about sharing my story now, in the hope that other mums understand that lesson while their children are still younger. And if they package some of their knowledge into a course, they don’t have to go out and shoot as much or work as much or…

Victoria (47:59)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (48:20)
put in as many hours with their day job or their business because they have an asset that can help make the money without them directly exchanging their time for money. So I suppose I’ve been there, learned the lessons the hard way, and that’s why I’m now sharing those lessons in the hope that it changes people’s lives.

Victoria (48:43)
Yeah, and I think it’s definitely something that mothers should look into if they’re curious, because as you say, you know, we only have our child’s attention in that early stage of their childhood. You know, your son is 24, he’s got his own life, he’s off doing his own thing, I’m sure he loves you dearly, but he’s not present every day. And you look back on that time with him.

And I’m sure that, you know, obviously everything you’re doing is for him as well as for you. And you’re having to support him and it’s driven by him and that kind of mama bear like urge to protect and look after him. Yeah, exactly. Well, that never goes away, but you must look back at some stages of his childhood and just think about you, you know, you were frantically trying to earn and exchanging time for money. And now you know, it’s like you’ve unlocked this sort of secret that actually

Natalie Webster (49:24)
Even now, yeah, even now.

Victoria (49:41)
that perhaps was a way. And it may not be the case that it could have been like that for you because of the way that course creation is quite a new thing. You know, it probably wasn’t the case that when he was two, you could have been doing that. But you understand that there is this sort of peak of childhood where children really need their mums around and they want them around. And actually, if you’re in a business where you’re exchanging time for money and it’s taking you away from your child, this is another avenue that you can have a look at.

to supplement that income and also just take the pressure off because the pressure of earning is something that we carry with us all the time.

Natalie Webster (50:14)
Yes.

Yeah, I think what you’ve said there, that’s absolutely it. It’s supplementing your income. It doesn’t mean that you have to put a course together and suddenly that’s all you do or the only way that you’re getting paid. You can have it as an asset alongside your business, which is what I did for many years. For the first three years or two years, I think it was, I only had my group shots course. So I was earning a lot of money as a wedding photographer, but then extra money through that course.

And then it was only because I saw people struggling in 2020 that I put another course together. And then that’s kind of how it, you know, the following years, that’s what happened. It was money coming in alongside that busy business. So it’s looking at it in a way that you don’t have to only create a course. You can have a course and it can even be a smaller course, like a £97 course. Imagine if that sold to five people a month.

and you had an extra 500 pounds coming in every month, if that would change your life. Or if you ⁓ had a 199 pound course, let’s say a 200 pound course, and five people a month bought that, or let’s say 10 people a month bought that, that’s an extra 2000 pounds coming in every single month. That will allow you to have a bit more freedom, a bit more flexibility, the freedom to say no to certain things. You know, like I remember when Danny was younger.

and if he had a school play, I actually turned down a celebrity shoot. I can’t remember who the celebrity was, but it was for Reveal magazine. Do you remember Reveal magazine? So I shot for them quite a lot in the early days and I had to say no to them once. It was a celebrity shoot because Danny had like a, I think it was like a Christmas play and nobody else was going, it was only me. And he was really upset, you know, and I said, oh, I’ve got this shoot. And he said, oh, please mum, try and make it. And I went to that.

Victoria (51:54)
day.

Natalie Webster (52:13)
to the play, the school play, but because of that, I didn’t go to the shoot and I didn’t get that money. And I think at the time it wasn’t loads, it was maybe about 400 pounds or something, but also that client never booked me again. They must have then booked the photographer who they booked in place of me. So that was quite a costly thing. And of course I would always want to be there for my son, but now if I had a course, well, I just pushed the course a little bit to make up that extra income. So it’s about having…

an asset that allows you more freedom in your life, the freedom to say no to the things that you don’t want to do or the things that you can’t do because you want to go and see your child in a school play.

Victoria (52:55)
Yeah, exactly. And it’s sort of a relief, I imagine, in that you feel like you have more agency over your one-to-one work, or if you’re a photographer, which shoots you take on, because you can pick and choose the ones you actually really want to do, and you can pick and choose the work that is really gonna fill your cup, and kind of reflective of why you started doing that in the first place without feeling like you have to take on absolutely everything just to make ends meet.

Natalie Webster (53:14)
Yes.

Victoria (53:24)
And tell me a little bit briefly about the transformation that you’ve seen in your business as a result of introducing courses. How has it changed your life?

Natalie Webster (53:34)
my goodness. it’s interesting because I created the courses alongside the busiest years in my photography business. it’s, you know, so this is probably the first year that I’m really seeing the main benefits of it. But there are the big aspects of it, you know, with that extra income coming in alongside your business, it’s helped me buy a house. I got a solo mortgage in November, 2020.

and completed in March 2021. I got a solo mortgage for a four bedroom, 12 room Victorian house, which was more than I could have ever dreamed of. And the extra income from the course has helped with that. And then within a year, me and my now husband, we bought a house. So we’ve got an investment property. So I had gone from being that single mom, not having the money to pay the rent and having, you know, being on tax benefits to pay the rent, to now not only owning a house, but also

being a landlord myself, that was a really big day. When the tenant signed the papers, I was like, my gosh, this feels like monumentous. But that’s one of the biggest changes, obviously. But honestly, day to day, it’s not panicking about my equipment not working. It’s not panicking about where I’m supposed to be.

Victoria (54:43)
Yeah.

Natalie Webster (54:56)
this weekend because of being so, so, so super busy. Thankfully, I always went to the right place on the right day, but it’s not having that underlying, yeah, it’s not having that underlying level of stress about where the money’s coming from. I see a lot of photographers in groups specifically saying, what’s everyone doing over the quiet months? People taking on part-time jobs or even full-time jobs. I’ve even seen people taking out loans.

Victoria (55:03)
Weddings are stressful. Yep.

Natalie Webster (55:22)
And I really just want to say that there is a better way. There is an easier way and a much more fulfilling way for both you and also all the other people that you can help. I suppose, and also my health has been a lot better this year because I haven’t been so burnt out from the stress. I have been looking after myself. I am, you know, just looking after my wellbeing. My skin is a lot better. I’m sleeping better.

Victoria (55:38)
Good. Yeah.

Natalie Webster (55:50)
I am enjoying life more. Like I said, I’ve got a husband now, so it’s nice to have weekends with him because when I was really busy with weddings, he would work through the week and be off at the weekend, but then I would go away on a Thursday and sometimes not be home until the Sunday, you know? So it’s about just having a better balance of life. And I think that’s all anybody can really ask for is having a good balance of life and just being able to enjoy life.

Victoria (56:20)
Yeah, absolutely. So with everything that you know now and all this experience you built up over this big career as a photographer and now as an educator and having mummed your child all the way to the grand old age of 24, what would you now say to your eight year old self?

Natalie Webster (56:43)
To my eight year old self, ooh. So that’s a very interesting one because I never thought that I was worth anything. Like, there’s a lot of childhood stuff still there and it makes me feel quite emotional because I was the shy child who would never put their hand up in class in case I said the wrong thing, in case people laughed at me, I would shuffle along with my head down.

Victoria (56:46)
Mmm.

Natalie Webster (57:11)
and I suppose what I would say to her, ooh, this is a powerful question, Victoria, my goodness. I suppose what I would say to her is you are enough and your voice is good enough to be heard.

Victoria (57:25)
That’s really powerful.

Natalie Webster (57:26)
Yeah. And I had to go through a lot of mindset work myself in order to get the podcast out there because the reason that I’d kept quiet for so long is what are people going to think? What are people going to say? But you need to, I suppose, and this can also translate to creating courses as well, is you need to make your desire to help people louder in your own head than caring about what people think or what people might say because

You will never be criticised by someone who’s doing more than you, only ever by someone who is doing less. ⁓

Victoria (58:03)
That I think is one of my favorite quotes of all time because it just makes all of that noise of criticism. It just dissipates because you think, okay, well get in the arena. You start a podcast then, you create a course then. And until you do, I mean, it’s that Brandy Brown thing, know, until you are in the arena getting pummeled, I’m not interested in your opinion.

Natalie Webster (58:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (58:31)
because I’m just trying to do a thing for myself, for my son, for my family. And, you know, leave me alone. I’m just trying to do my thing. And I think that’s really powerful. There’s something about being eight years old, I think. We’re kind of quite vulnerable at that age. yeah, nobody’s asked me yet, but maybe it would draw the same emotion out in me, because it is quite something. So tell me,

Natalie Webster (58:54)
and

Victoria (59:00)
where people can find you, if they would like to connect with you or if they would like to learn more about, you know, the whole process of creating a course and starting to monetise your knowledge, where should they go and find you?

Natalie Webster (59:14)
You can find me on Instagram at IamNatalieWebster and you can also, I don’t know when this episode is airing, but I’m running a free masterclass on Tuesday the 23rd of September. It might be past that when this is aired or when anyone listens to this, but have a look at the links in my bio anyway over on my Instagram because that will direct you to the right place. But if anyone is listening before that, you can just DM me the word create, or there’s a link in the bio over on Instagram too.

get your seat for that free masterclass.

Victoria (59:47)
Thank you so much for your time, Natalie. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you coming along for a chat with me.

Natalie Webster (59:56)
I forgot my podcast as well. Okay. I’m gonna, I’m gonna pimp my podcast as well. So you can also find me on Apple, Spotify and all top podcast platforms at what’s the podcast called? The Rich Life Podcast. I was going to say at, cause we just been talking about Instagram, it’s the Rich Life Podcast on all top platforms.

Victoria (59:58)
go on, yes, well think I did identify it, but yeah, go on.

highly recommend it. There’s loads of really interesting gems in there and if you don’t know anything about course creation it’s a really great place to start I think. You give away so much good information that kind of dispels all the mystery around it so yeah definitely go and check that out. It’s alright.

Natalie Webster (1:00:34)
I love that you’ve been listening. Thank you. It’s a very interesting

thing having a podcast because you don’t directly get likes and comments like you do on social media. So it’s been very interesting having a podcast. So anybody that does listen to the podcast, DM me over on Instagram and let me know which episodes you like, if anything resonates. I honestly, hand on heart, love, love, love to hear. So yeah, do let me know.

Victoria (1:00:43)
I know.

Brilliant. Well, thank you again so much, Natalie. I will let you get on with your day, but I’ve loved this conversation. It’s been really insightful, really interesting. Thank you.

Natalie Webster (1:01:05)
Thank you for having me Victoria, it has been a pleasure.