Episode 39: Demystifying HR and Leading with Heart When Life Gets Hard with Katie Elliott

Hello and welcome to the Mum Means Business podcast, where we shine a light on inspiring women who have one thing in common. When they’re not managing tantrums, homework, P.E. kits and play dates, they are busting their gut to create something from nothing, to turn their passion into a thriving business and build a better life for themselves and their families. We dig into what motivates devoted mothers to pursue entrepreneurship and how they integrate their work and family life.

I’m Victoria Phipps, your host, and if you’re an ambitious mum in need of some solidarity whilst navigating the messy middle of making your big dream a reality, then stick around. This is for you.

NOTE: This is the transcript from the original recording, rather than the edited episode so timings may vary.

Victoria (00:01)
My guest today is an expert in human resources who supports small business owners with the people side of running their business. With over 15 years of HR experience and 11 years of motherhood under her belt, she’s realized that leading a team and raising small humans are not worlds apart. She describes the moment she left paid employment as taking a punt. There was no business plan, no clearly defined strategy, just an instinct that there was a gap in the market she could fill.

and she was right. Looking back, she believes that she’s made her business work by showing up consistently and listening carefully to what her clients really needed. Mum of two, Katie Elliott, AKA HR Katie, is all about honest advice, steady support, and helping her clients and her kids lead with confidence even when things feel messy and confusing.

Katie understands the challenges that come with navigating team growth in a small business, which may have been a one woman band for a long time. Hiring new team members can represent a huge step, which might be exciting and nerve wracking, time consuming and confusing all at once. HR Katie offers specialist support whatever stage of growth you’re in to help you get back to spending time in your zone of genius. Now I am a long way off growing a team.

But I do hope to one day not do absolutely everything myself and to get more than six hours sleep a night. So Katie, I’m very interested to hear more about this. Welcome to the Mummy’s Business Podcast.

Katie Elliott (01:34)
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for that lovely introduction, Victoria.

Victoria (01:39)
You’re welcome. So let’s go back. I mentioned it in the intro, this move away from paid employment and to start a business and bet on yourself. What made you do it?

Katie Elliott (01:56)
Well, I’m going to say a dirty word now. COVID. COVID happened, basically. after my second maternity leave, I was on SMP for both of mine. So I didn’t have anything to go back. I didn’t have any pullback to my previous employer. So they were in London. During my second maternity leave, they’d moved to like southwest London.

Victoria (02:00)
Mm-hmm. Okay, right. Yeah.

Katie Elliott (02:24)
I live in Hertfordshire, like it had all just got a lot more difficult. I was managing a team of people, but I had two very small humans at home and I was getting zero sleep at that point. Both of my children were terrible sleepers. And I just knew I didn’t have it in me to go back to a job that big. I mean, it was an SME. wasn’t like a massive company, but you know, it was a growing business. And as I said, I had a team of HR people and it was, it was a

a much, much bigger job. I decided to find something more locally. And then I started working for a local accountancy practice. And effectively I was like their in house HR consultant. So I would do HR support for clients kind of as and when. So sometimes it was really busy and really interesting, but then there were other times that it was so unbelievably boring because

like if there wasn’t HR stuff coming up I was almost just sat there and it’s funny because I remember talking to someone of like I’d love to be bored in my job and I was like try it try it because I honestly felt like my brain was kind of atrophying and my heart all my skills like I sort of almost feel them like draining out of my body because I just never got to practice or use my knowledge like enough

So that was all kind of going on in the background. Then COVID happened, as I said, and all of a sudden everybody needed me again. And I was super busy, super like the go-to person that everybody was coming to. I mean, to the point that sometimes I was like, guys, I don’t actually have a direct line to number 10. I wish I did. I wish I knew what this furlough malarkey was all about, but like I sort of had become.

Victoria (04:12)
You

Katie Elliott (04:20)
I was constantly reading all the news reports, was constantly having to update people with all the furlough scheme, etc. So I suddenly had this like, ⁓ this is what it’s like to be busy and useful and using my knowledge. So yeah, we had a year, didn’t we, of in and out of lockdowns I was working from home. My kids at that point, the youngest was in preschool, the eldest was just in early years like you.

think she was in year one when we first went into lockdown. So they were really little, know, they weren’t the, ⁓ they weren’t babies, but they weren’t the like, I had to be in the lounge, you know, work, working. I couldn’t leave them to sit on their iPads in their rooms all day, et cetera, et cetera. Like they were very present in my day to day. And I just realised that basically like the job.

Victoria (04:53)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (05:15)
I liked the people and I liked the hours because it was part time around school and stuff. But like once all that disappeared, I was like, I’ve never liked this job. I’ve never. I mean, I just sort of had this glaring realisation of like, they were like, you know, we want you back in the office. We want you doing this again. We want you doing that again. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. So it was just one of those things that at the time my

Victoria (05:38)
haha

Katie Elliott (05:43)
now ex-husband, but he was ⁓ self-employed on a very good daily rate and my income was effectively covering the cost of like preschool and that was basically it. So it just was kind of like, I’m really unhappy. I could see there was this opportunity, as I said, that like I effectively was an in-house HR consultant for another business. I was like, I don’t need them. I could find my own clients.

and do work that I’m much more interested in and is much more useful. So yeah, as you said in my intro, I am not the proponent of like super planned out, you know, did a year of savings and blah, blah, blah. It was like, nope. I decided, I told them in December, I said, I’ll officially hand my notice in January and then I’ll leave first of February. Well, listeners.

Victoria (06:29)
You

Katie Elliott (06:43)
You may or may not remember, but I remember because it’s ingrained on my stone cold heart that the day that I was due to start my handover and start recruiting for my replacement in that job was the day we went back into lockdown and they said the schools weren’t going back. So that was one of the worst months of my life. But I did it. I handed it over. Well, I found my replacement. I handed it over. And then, yeah, it was like, done. So

Victoria (06:58)
Yeah

Katie Elliott (07:13)
That was sort of what started me on my journey. yeah, and then once the kids went back to school in March, I started like, I set up my Instagram page. I started actively kind of promoting myself. And then I just, through several, you know, happy accidents, ⁓ but also, you know, I suppose a bit of grafting, I got involved with a really big…

internal employee relations issue with a friend’s business that I’d been doing bits and blobs for before, but this became like a really big thing. So that they were effectively sort of became my first proper client. And then, yeah, I was posting, as I said, on Instagram, etc. And a friend of mine messaged me and said, we don’t have HR at the moment, you should have a meeting with our CEO. And lo and behold,

four years later, they’re still my biggest one-to-one client. it’s just kind of, yeah, sort of serendipity, hard work, luck, all of it just mixed in. And that’s what I wanted to sort of say that like, I don’t, I totally respect people who have that vision board all planned out, or they, you know, they have this like massive financial runway, organized like, amazing, well done.

Victoria (08:12)
Amazing.

Katie Elliott (08:38)
But like that, that was not my experience, unfortunately. But you know, I still believe that, yeah, you can make it happen even if you’re not 100 % clear on like what the future actually holds. doesn’t mean you can’t try.

Victoria (08:38)
you

Yeah, well, let’s dig into that a little bit. you obviously had, and I appreciate this now, I’m kind of thinking as you’re talking about my father’s company, because it’s been going 20 years and I’d still do marketing for them. And when it started 20 years ago, I’m thinking about how the landscape has changed. There was no way we were gonna have an HR person. That just was not going to happen.

Katie Elliott (09:18)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria (09:23)
And really, even up until five years ago, would have felt unthinkable. If you have an HR conflict, I my dad was quite old school back in the day, he would take people outside and have a good talk to them and explain their options. Well, it never escalated, it very rarely escalated. And it only would escalate when he couldn’t do that because that person had left, and then it’s kind of out of your control. But internally, he would…

Katie Elliott (09:34)
I mean.

I’m not being funny, Victoria, your dad’s got it right. That’s the best way to deal with things. Usually.

Victoria (09:52)
very effectively resolve and conclude any of these issues. But obviously times have changed and now there’s so much compliance out there. And I suppose, I see also we did take on an HR person who is part-time, a bit like it sounds you were in your previous job. And she does three days a week.

And when she came in, there was so much to do because of all the documentation that was missing and everything needed to be updated. And we just never had any human resources attention. So very, very busy setting everything up fully compliant. And then it becomes about conflict resolution. There’s a little bit of team building and stuff in there, but it’s yours. It’s kind of as proactive as the company wants it to be. there’s, you know, budgetary constraints there of things that you could do if you want to kind of be proactive and positive, but.

There are definitely times when I can see that she is kind of sort of getting involved in stuff that isn’t necessarily to do with her job, probably because she is a bit bored. And I hadn’t thought about it before. I just thought she was just like to get amongst stuff. But it makes total sense. She might, but it makes total sense that it is kind of a feast and famine situation. And I have been, the very first job I ever had,

Katie Elliott (11:05)
Which she might.

Victoria (11:14)
was in an architecture practice after uni. And it was a one year thing. It was after my part one and you’re supposed to go back and do your diploma. I didn’t do that, but I did work in practice in Liverpool for a year and they did not give me enough work to do. And sometimes I would just go and like go to the toilet and sit there in like, it was quite a big toilet cubicle. It wasn’t like sit on the toilet. I was like, sit by the door for like, I mean, but people would judge me probably like thinking what’s wrong with her? She’s ill or what?

Katie Elliott (11:34)
No judgment.

Victoria (11:39)
I would sit there and sometimes I’d like stretch that out to like 30 minutes. Cause I was just like, I cannot pretend to work any longer today because you do also feel like you ought to show that you’re working because you’re having a salary. And the whole thing makes you feel really undervalued, makes you feel like just what’s the point? You have no purpose. It’s exhausting trying to pretend that you’ve got stuff to do when you haven’t.

Katie Elliott (12:04)
Mmm.

Victoria (12:08)
And so I totally understand why you would be unhappy in that situation. And it might sound glamorous to be bored at work, but my experience is exactly the same as yours. It’s painful to be bored at work. It’s awful to be heavily stretched as well. And it sounds like you went from almost nothing to like COVID chaos and suddenly everyone is your best friend and they all want to talk to you 12 times a day and find out what the hell is going on. So at what point did you feel like, or did the idea kind of spark in your mind?

Katie Elliott (12:18)
soaping.

Victoria (12:37)
that you might be able to do this yourself? Was that when you were in your old job?

Katie Elliott (12:42)
Yeah, so I was part-time in that job, as you said, and I didn’t work Fridays. So the friend who I ended up helping with this big issue, I would do a Friday for them. Sometimes I would go into their offices on a Friday and I would be their sort of HR person, because they were a startup kind of tech company. I talk about them like they’re in the past tense, they’re still going.

⁓ They are actually responsible for the name HR Katie actually because that’s what they used to say. They used to say to the staff an email would go around saying HR Katie’s coming in today. So this is before the business was, yeah, yeah, and it stuck. I used to, because like I said, my ex was self-employed. So I just, he had a company up and running. So I just used to like do all my invoicing through that. So I had this like completely different business name.

Victoria (13:24)
it makes sense and it sticks

Katie Elliott (13:40)
and I was like an employee of the business because that’s what I was. So yeah, so when I decided like actually I could do this for you and I could do this set up for quite a few other people and it would mean that I am actually useful and I am actually going out and meeting people again, I’m actually…

Victoria (14:02)
Mmm.

Katie Elliott (14:07)
helping in like different kinds of businesses and I’m actually people when they see me are not thinking god what we’re gonna give it to do they’re thinking thank god you’re here we need to talk to you about xyz so it’s sort of all kind of sparked from them really and then the other side of it I should probably mention my sister had at this time completely out of the deep blue sea what it felt like to us started up a

clothing brand for children. And she started this brand basically out of nothing on Instagram. And we had this conversation. She was like, just go for it. Like pick a name, start putting out content, see what happens. And I remember having the conversation with her about shouting into the void where you’re like, is anybody out there? But then there are, like I said, there are these lurkers that appear and say, ⁓ yes.

Come and speak to our CEO. So I just got to the point of kind of thinking like, I’ve really got to stop friends and family like watching my stories and following me on my work account. Like it’s a bit embarrassing. And then it’s like, no, it’s not embarrassing, it’s great.

Victoria (15:27)
Yeah, that’s a hard time though. When you start putting yourself out there, it can feel very vulnerable. And all of that kind of marketing, putting your face on the internet and offering something, it’s so personal. And when actually nobody likes it, like in inverted commas, likes it.

Katie Elliott (15:36)
Yes.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Victoria (15:52)
and nobody

comments on it. And you just think, my God, it’s so hard to keep going and push through that because as you say, that’s such good advice because if you can push through it, there are people watching and they might not be likers and they might not be commenters, but you might just.

Katie Elliott (16:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

They might be lurkers.

Victoria (16:15)
They might be lurkers, yeah, but actually valuable lurkers, not just lurkers like, you know, Kelly went to school with in 1990, whatever. People that are just sort of noticing and just wondering if maybe that might fit for a problem they know about with a company or, you know, whatever it might be. And it might take them a little bit of time to get in touch with you. But if you keep going, if you suddenly then disappear off the radar, they think, that was a flash in the pan. She’s not doing that now.

Katie Elliott (16:22)
No, no, Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly, yeah.

Victoria (16:46)
And really people are not paying very much attention, but if you keep talking about it and push through that pain of shouting into the void, it’s worth it in your experience.

Katie Elliott (16:51)
Yeah.

It is. as well, I’ve got another story similar that I picked up another one of my like now, I think I’ve been working with them for two, three years now where somebody that I’d connected with on LinkedIn was like, I don’t do HR anymore, but my old company are looking for some HR support. Why don’t, you know, I’ve seen your stuff. I think you’d fit really well with them. Why don’t you, you know,

reach out to them and yeah and like we’ve worked together for years now so because the thing I say to people it’s like a vibe check in a way the social media side of things because it’s like if people look at my insta and think who the hell is this woman that’s great because they don’t have to have a discovery call with me like that saves everybody quite a lot of time if they think this this woman is not my vibe whereas I’ve had

Victoria (17:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Katie Elliott (17:56)
other people who have gone on to become clients and people that I work with when they say to me, oh, I went on your website. It looks so friendly. could, you know, my face is all over it. Like one of my best friends is a branding photographer. So she’s done all my photos and you know, so it’s me. I am HR Katie. I don’t hide behind any like stock images or any like super corporate persona. It is me. You get me and

some people really respond to that. you know, one client said to me, ⁓ I was recommended three different HR people. I looked at their websites. had no idea who they were, what they did. I went on yours and thought, yeah, that’s the person for me because you’re a real human. So that’s, that’s the like the vibe check side of, obviously I talked about website there as well, but, but social media, think is the same as well. Yeah.

Victoria (18:46)
All of it,

yeah. Yeah, and I love that. And I think actually you’ve tapped into something and it sounds like you sort of, whether it’s subconscious or conscious, like you considered this. Actually for a lot of small businesses, HR is scary. They don’t really know where to start. And actually they just want a lovely smiley lady to come in and make it better. Do you feel that? ⁓

Katie Elliott (19:11)
That is exactly what

I try and say to people. I am there to hold your hand. And that’s why I’ve really kind of, try to anyway, like hone my marketing that I am particularly good at working with people that are like just starting up or just scaling up because I have been there. I have done it. I am it as well. So like, I know how scary it feels when you’re taking on someone for the first time.

I know how scary it feels when you have to have like a really serious conversation with someone for the first time. And I’ve never worked in big corporates. Like, as I said, even my sort of big, in inverted commas, HR job, you know, it was a company that grew to about, I don’t know, 150 people or something by the time I left. But, you know, it started when I was first there, like 40 people or whatever. you know, I totally have only ever worked in SMEs or small businesses. I’ve never been in those big

corporate HR teams where you you’re locked away on a different floor and people have got to make an appointment three weeks in advance. I’ve only ever been in the kind of HR team where you’re sat on the floor like, not the floor, you know what mean, you’re sat in the office, out, out in the floor, you know I’m not, Sorry that sounded really tech bro then, I’m on the floor man. No, like I mean out in the office, you know I’ve never been at

Victoria (20:24)
You’ve got a desk, right? On a chair.

Yeah, people know who you

are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Katie Elliott (20:39)
People know who I am. They just wander up and be like, have you got five minutes? I just need to chat to you about something. I’ve

only ever experienced that. So that’s completely what I do when I’m working with founders and people sort of just getting started that I am sort of just like, it’s really hard. It’s okay. like, I get it. I’m here to hold your hand. And I think that’s mainly what they’re looking for. They’re nice people who want to do things the right way.

Victoria (21:03)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (21:06)
and those are the people that I love working with as well because I’m like yeah and sometimes you know they have to make really hard decisions they have to let people go or they have to have like a really hard conversation with people who aren’t performing and sometimes I do make a point of like emailing or messaging them afterwards and saying no one’s going to say to you well done for doing this but I am because I know how hard that was and they were always like thank you so much

Victoria (21:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

I understand that.

Katie Elliott (21:34)
Because you’re not gonna go home

to your other half and be like, ⁓ just sack someone today, go me. It’s like, if you are that person, you and I will not be working together because it’s not the vibe.

Victoria (21:52)
No, definitely not. And I think that’s so sweet of you to do that because the thing is, you know, if you’re entrepreneurial and you start your own business, it’s because you have a desire to make an impact, make some money, support your family. You know, you have this purpose, this goal, and that is kind of your zone of genius. People management is…

a whole different skill. And often, you know, it feels very exciting to like onboard people and you’re growing your team. A little bit scary, yeah, but you feel like if you can afford it, to be able to take on a team member feels like such a moment, I imagine, like, ⁓ my God, it’s happening. Like I can afford this person to help me because by that stage, you really, really need help. You can’t manage it all by yourself. And then that team might grow.

Katie Elliott (22:37)
amazing.

Victoria (22:49)
But when it comes to the difficult conversations and managing poor behavior or when people aren’t meeting their goals, that’s not easy at all. So do you like, when things like that come up, do you go in and do that with your clients? Do you sort of sit with them and navigate, like guide them through these conversations?

and like maybe physically hold their hand under the table, like it’s okay, keep going, you’re doing great. How does that work? Or do you train them? Like what do you do?

Katie Elliott (23:24)
Yeah, I’m sort of more like a coach or a trainer. So like I’ve had it many times where people are like, can you be in this conversation? I’m like, no. I’m like, the moment you bring HR in, you’re making this way more serious. It becomes much more formal. So your dad having a quiet word, 100 % that’s usually my advice. Well, fair. Okay. ⁓ But no, nine times out of 10 when people quote, and I’ve got this massive issue, have you spoken to them?

Victoria (23:26)
Yeah.

Okay.

It’s got bigger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wasn’t always quiet. A word.

Katie Elliott (23:53)
No, I’ve just been moaning about it for a long time and it’s really, really upsetting me, but I haven’t actually dealt with it. Okay, let’s talk you through just dealing with it first and then we’ll work out what we need to do. So, yeah, so for example, I’ve got an issue with a client at the moment where they’ve got a couple of team members that really aren’t delivering and they said, I keep telling them and they keep saying, yes, okay, yes, we’ll be better. And then they’re not.

Victoria (23:55)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (24:23)
So I’ve said with that one, they’re to have one final like really serious conversation. But then if, if stuff still keeps not being delivered, then yes, it will turn into a formal process and I will go in and I will sit with them. But that will be because we’re in like a conduct disciplinary type of process. Most other people, I am sort of almost, as I said, they’re kind of coach or they’re your hand holder saying,

you can do this, this is the right way to do it. So that’s more what I’m doing. I’m like, you can look at, make sure you cover this, make sure you ask this. You know, sometimes I write scripts for people, sometimes I’ll just give them bullet points of like, make sure you cover off these points. And effectively, you know, the nine times out of 10, as I said, what I really want people to do is kind of understand the root cause of the problem. Because quite often, it’s just that

maybe they don’t understand what they were supposed to be doing or maybe there is some kind of big personal issue that no one knows about or maybe they are just a terrible human but you need to kind of understand what your starting point is ⁓ because yeah don’t get me wrong I’ve also had the call from a client who is now a friend where she’s rung me and been like I’ve got a human bin fire I don’t know what to do

Victoria (25:47)
Hahaha

Katie Elliott (25:49)
And, you know, those happen and sometimes people do just go off the deep end and you have very little choice other than to follow an exit process and get them out of there as quickly as possible. But I, that’s never been my favourite part. ⁓ You know, again, weird. know some HR people that are like, ooh, I love a good disciplinary. And I’m like, no, thanks.

Victoria (26:14)
It’s very dark, isn’t it?

Katie Elliott (26:16)
It’s very dark, but I think they just love the drama. know, they just love the like, and don’t get me wrong. Sorry, I was just going to say, don’t get me wrong. I think what does help being HR is if you do, if you, if you do like knowing everything, it’s quite nice when you’re like, it’s so good. Because like, you know, when you have an HR meeting and all gloves are off and we’re like, oh my God, and then we just all like go in on what’s happening.

Victoria (26:21)
And also if there’s… Go on.

yeah, it’s good for gossip. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Elliott (26:43)
I mean I did a reel about it a while ago but like yeah after nearly 20 years I suppose my like poker face should be better but even I sometimes like if I’m in a really formal disciplinary process and someone comes out with something outrageous I just can’t rearrange my face quick enough because I’m like what the hell was that about?

Victoria (26:58)
Yeah, but you’re human. Like still,

you can’t just be completely unaffected. You’re not like an FBI agent. know, you’re gonna still, these things are gonna land. But I think maybe part of it is that, like you say, if there’s nothing going on, you know, all the documentation’s up to date, your contracts are up to date, and there’s no issue. It can be dull to be embedded in a company in HR when there’s actually no conflict to resolve. So probably…

Katie Elliott (27:10)
Yeah.

Victoria (27:29)
it just adds a bit of flavor to their job if everything else is kind of covered. I can kind of understand that. Otherwise they’re if they’re twiddling their thumbs. But I guess, yeah, this conflict resolution thing, it’s interesting. I want to ask you about your take on the kind of overlap between conflict resolution in a workplace and conflict resolution in a family.

Katie Elliott (27:38)
Yeah.

Hmm

Mmm.

Victoria (27:56)
and managing

your kids versus managing employees and what you kind of notice about kind of the similarities there.

Katie Elliott (28:09)
how to put this politely, but there are a lot. I mean, the amount of like, know, CEOs or founders or whatever that I speak to and then they’re like, it’s like dealing with children. And I’m like, yes, yes it is. Like, I don’t know what it is, but I think sometimes people…

In an employer-employee relationship, sometimes you do kind of revert to that sort of child-parent kind of standpoint because you feel like, they’re telling me off! And then you feel like you need to rebel and then they get all moody and miserable and you want to just say, to your room and get over it!

Victoria (28:41)
Hahaha!

hilarious. You’re right though, yeah.

Katie Elliott (28:53)
So there

are strong overlaps, I can’t lie. ⁓ I don’t know. When you’re dealing with teams of people, it’s funny how the sort of herd mentality kicks in as well. So people suddenly all start thinking the same thing and it’s like, it’s actually because they’re all just like whispering to each other in their breaks about it and stuff. there is, you sometimes I do say it’s like being at school again or.

when you’re dealing with a team member being really difficult and you’re just like, can’t you just grow up and just deal with this issue? Like it’s no fun, but can’t we just deal with this? yeah, there’s unfortunately, there’s lots of overlaps. Does it mean I’m particularly brilliant at conflict resolution at home? No, I don’t think it’s, I can’t say I’m like an absolute master of it because let’s be honest, your own children, they’re the ones that push your buttons the most, right?

Victoria (29:48)
yeah, yeah. 100%.

Katie Elliott (29:49)
I mean, but my

thing that I do with my kids is sometimes it’s like when I can feel the rage bubbling. So mine are nine and 11 now. So we’re in a slightly different phase. But yeah, when we’re like trying to get out the house and everybody’s still up in their room, like putting their socks on or whatever the flip they’re doing. I’m like, Shoudy Mummy is on the way. I’m like, I’m like.

Victoria (30:13)
You ⁓

Katie Elliott (30:15)
we’ve got two minutes to get out the door and if we’re not out the door in two minutes, shouty mummy’s coming and they’re like okay. so you know i sort of sometimes i try and pre-empt it sometimes it’s nought to 100 and i can’t help it and shouty mummy arrives with no warning but sometimes i do try and pre-empt it and just like guys i can’t i can’t do this anymore you know it’s the classic like put your shoes on again weirdly i made a reel about that like

Victoria (30:22)
Yeah

Katie Elliott (30:41)
I did this like fake like put your shoes on, put your shoes on, put your shoes on and then I showed it to the kids and they were like was that this morning? And I was like no but it could have been couldn’t it?

Victoria (30:50)
It could have been any morning, let’s be honest. What is it about shoes, honestly? It’s just, it’s painful, isn’t it? And everyone seems to have the same issue.

Katie Elliott (30:52)
Could have been any morning.

But again,

but yeah, but bring it back to employees. It’s the same thing. It’s like, you know, the big thing at the moment. And I did a LinkedIn live with Five Hour Club about this the other week. It’s about flexible working. And everybody’s like, I flexible working, I want flexible working. But what they not willing to be as flexible themselves, they only want their employer to be flexible. So then they get annoyed when their employers like, we can’t.

can’t work like this and then you’re not being very flexible it’s like no they’re being really flexible it’s you that’s not being very flexible so this is what i mean about this like parent child thing that you’re kind of almost having to deal with like defensive toddlers and you’re like no guys please

Victoria (31:42)
When you put it like this, I don’t know how you have any energy left to parent your own children at the end of the day. Especially if you have to like mask, you know, through the day, you can’t just say to, you know, an employee of a client, like, you can’t tell the client to just tell them to f off or just tell them to pull their socks off or put their shoes on or whatever it might be. You can’t just, you have to be like very particular.

Katie Elliott (32:06)
FOR YOUR SAKE, I-

Victoria (32:11)
compliant, follow the procedure, like that’s what you’re for. And it gives your client peace of mind, but you have to be very professional about it, regardless of what you’re hearing, you know, from your client and whatever story said employee is coming out with that is preventing them from doing their job, whatever it might be, to kind of like just deal with all of that and absorb it and then go home and like deal with your children that are… ⁓

equally unhelpful that day I just think it must be absolutely exhausting.

Katie Elliott (32:44)
mean, that’s motherhood, right? Sorry to say, but like, I mean, when is it not? I don’t know anyone who has a job where they go home and think, oh, wonderful. Now I have to deal with these chumps that I birthed instead.

Victoria (32:47)
Yeah.

So pleased to have another shift. Yeah.

Yeah. And it’s the relentlessness of it. And yeah, that you have to keep going. But I suppose I just kind of feel like a lot of people go to work. And particularly if you work for yourself, there’s kind of a lone time.

Katie Elliott (33:23)
Mmm.

Victoria (33:24)
which

as a mother, you kind of crave desperately sometimes just to kind of have a moment’s peace. But you’re kind of in a position where you’ve perhaps chosen a career path, which does involve some fighting of fires and some conflict resolution. So you must be skilled at it, you know.

Katie Elliott (33:41)
Yeah, yeah, I

I do say that I’m like, my job would be so good if it wasn’t for people. Like, I, well, yeah, but like the theory of it and they’re like, like, this is how you do it. And this is the process. And this is what you’re all supposed to do. And this is the outcome. It’s like, yeah, that’s fine. But then I say this almost on a daily basis. You think people are going to zig and then they zag.

Victoria (33:50)
Yeah, it also wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for people.

Yeah.

Katie Elliott (34:09)
you know, like I’ll, I’ll set a manager up or a business owner up to go into a conversation. I’m like, this should be quite straightforward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they come out and they’re like, my God, it went to absolute hell in a hand basket. And it was like this massive thing and it was blah, blah, blah. it’s like, and I’m like, what? But then there’s other times where I like prep, prep, prep someone, cause they’re like, this is going to be awful. It’s going to be so difficult, blah, blah, blah. And then they call the person in and they say, you know, your job’s not available anymore or.

Victoria (34:24)
And you’re thinking, how? It was so simple. ⁓

Katie Elliott (34:38)
we’ve got to let you go or whatever the outcome is. And then the person just like sort of nods and says, okay, that’s a shame. And it’s like, oh, you got this like massive like out. Yeah, this massive sort of like out take a breath. So this is what I mean. Like you kind of never know what you’re going to get. But.

Victoria (34:47)
All that adrenaline!

I imagine

it’s entertaining, actually.

Katie Elliott (35:00)
I couldn’t possibly say, but yes there might be some amusing stories down the way where you just think, what?

Victoria (35:07)
Wow.

But people are funny. know, people, like you say, you think they’re gonna zig and they zag. I think human behavior is entertaining. Like, obviously, we’re talking about it in a professional sense, but it just, people are funny. They do funny things that surprise you. You know, and it’s not always for the worse. Sometimes people might surprise you and actually, you know, it’s a difficult conversation, but they come out of it and they turn everything around, you know, and that’s the win, you know.

Katie Elliott (35:33)
And

I’ve said that, I’ve said that, you when you’re going into those conversations, I’m like, there are usually three outcomes. One of which is that they say, well, actually, I don’t, I don’t like this job anyway. And this has made me realise that I am in the wrong job and they make the decision on their own to leave. The sort of best result is the one you just said that they actually are like, okay, I’ve had a mirror held up, I totally understand it. And I know I’ve got to turn things around. And then you do get, you know, the employee that you were hoping for.

And then unfortunately, the third way is the zigzag way, as it were, that they, know, everything becomes much harder. You end up in formal processes. It all becomes bogged down because they start sort of fighting back against the process and that kind of thing. you know, I’ve seen all of those outcomes throughout, but I’m still not always brilliant at predicting which one it’s going to be because sometimes I think it’s going to be the fight, fight, fight option.

And then it ends up being the, you’re right. This is wrong for me. I’m out of here. And everybody wins. Cause it’s like, clearly everyone, you know, the employer was unhappy, the employee was unhappy and it wasn’t the right fit. ⁓

Victoria (36:42)
Yeah, it wasn’t a right fit and everyone could go on

and thrive in a new way. You know, that’s fine. That’s fine.

Katie Elliott (36:47)
Exactly. and

I never see that as a bad outcome if it’s an amicable resolution. So, yeah, I think there’s always ways of means basically, but you don’t always know what you’re to get.

Victoria (36:54)
Yeah. Yeah.

What,

no, absolutely. What would you say to somebody who has been a one woman band for a long time and is maybe they’ve outsourced a few bits to like freelancers and they’re getting to the point where they’re like, I actually can’t manage, but they’re afraid of all of this stuff and they feel out of the depth. Obviously they should just call you.

Katie Elliott (37:18)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Victoria (37:31)
But in terms of just advice to kind of make it less intimidating, what would you say? And to go about finding the right people, what would you advise that they do just to get that ball rolling?

Katie Elliott (37:31)
just Obviously number one.

Mm.

Well, I think there’s a few different things in here because actually there are quite a few processes that you need to go through. So I think that’s what scares people as well. It’s almost that kind of like, how do you eat the elephant thing? They see this massive issue of like, God, I need to bring someone on. I don’t know where to start. But it’s like the way to eat an elephant is bite by bite, right? You can’t eat the whole thing at once. So go through each of those processes individually and, and

ensure that you’re able to kind of manage each step as you go along. So don’t feel overwhelmed. It is an overwhelming big task to do potentially, but there are ways and means of making it more manageable. So, you know, make sure you’ve got the right job description in place. Make sure you’ve got all your HMRC and all your payroll stuff sorted out. Then start looking for someone.

then go through a recruitment process and then make sure you’ve got all your contracts of employment, employee handbooks, all of that kind of sorted. like all of those things can happen at once, but it’s much, much more manageable if you do it sort of step by step.

Victoria (39:05)
Yeah, and maybe if you’re thinking that that’s in your future, you can kind of nibble away at the elephant ahead of time. Yeah, so that it feels less overwhelming when you actually go to do it because like all of that HMRC stuff, I mean, you know, it’s all important, but it doesn’t mean that you’re committed. You’re just kind of getting things, the foundation ready.

Katie Elliott (39:12)
Totally. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, like I said, writing job descriptions or even things like writing process notes and stuff. You think, oh my God, I’ve got to write 1200 process notes. Well, actually, if you think maybe in six months time, I’m going to need someone to start doing that stuff now, like when you’re doing these tasks, start writing a process notes or start, you know, making loom videos of you doing things, you know, because then again, you’ve got this bank ready to go for when that person starts. So

There’s ways and means of making it more bearable, basically. ⁓

Victoria (40:02)
Yeah, and also that

person can then hit the ground running. You know, you’ve got it all there. don’t, it’s again, you’re not trying to eat the elephant at once. You’ve kind of done some of it already and you’re getting the most out of that person.

Katie Elliott (40:09)
No.

The only,

totally, because the only other thing I was going to say is, and again, I talk about quite a lot about this on social media is don’t overlook onboarding either. Like once you’ve actually got the person, because everyone talks about first impressions in recruitment, right? But onboarding is also a first impression.

I’ve done exit interviews for people that two, three years down the line when they leave will tell me in their exit interview how terrible their onboarding was, how bad their first day was, how disorganised, know, the computer wasn’t ready and their manager was on holiday and like they didn’t know where to find anything for weeks. Like all of that stuff again, you can have totally like prepped and ready in advance.

And you can have a very simple checklist of things that need to be covered off in the first couple of days, just so that you both don’t feel completely overwhelmed by getting this person up and running.

Victoria (41:12)
Yeah, I always think that those first few days in a new job are quite terrifying at times. And if it’s just you and you’re onboarding one person, it can feel all very friendly. And actually that it shouldn’t be discounted. know, it can, that I assume that can become a really fun working relationship. And then you could grow on to build more people into your team, whatever. I don’t want to be kind of like,

Katie Elliott (41:19)
Mmm.

Victoria (41:41)
talking to you about all the problems, I’m aware, I’m like, what’d you do about difficult conversations and whatever, but actually, you know, the reason that you take people on is to help you and to grow and that’s all really positive. But I think for a person starting a new job, it makes such a difference if, again, you you don’t wanna feel like you’re floundering or you’re unsure. If you just have a computer, you know what you’re doing, you’re given some tasks, you’re given some time as well.

Katie Elliott (41:45)
Bye.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Victoria (42:08)
If

people really remember that, and it’s so interesting that they’re citing that in exit meetings with you years later, because first days of anything kind of do lodge themselves in your memory. And that’s your first impression of your employer. So it works both ways.

Katie Elliott (42:12)
Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly. And I think that’s what people forget. They forget that there is this two way street because it’s all well and good that the person wants to make a good impression, but you as their new employer, you know, that’s really important to to make a good impression as well. So, yeah, I think it’s something I do champion quite a lot because I do think it can be overlooked, especially with small businesses when they’re so busy, when we’re so under pressure, you know.

Again, I’m coming at this from a point of like, I know, like I’m totally there with you. So make sure that you are like aware of it so you can address it because it really will. I mean, it is a real like neurological thing that we remember sort of beginnings and endings. So you have to, you have to onboard people with the same kind of experiences they’re going to have.

throughout their time with you. ⁓ And ideally you want that to be supported and looked after.

Victoria (43:31)
go all out and say, actually, you need to be kinder to them in the first week than any other time, because they’re not going to remember the middle so much. You know, that if we’re going to remember the first welcome, because really, you’re welcoming them into your family of a business. And even if it’s just you, you know, they are now part of the team. And that will stand out in their memory. And you can build such loyalty. If you make a big fuss at the start. Yeah. So would you like to build a team?

Katie Elliott (43:44)
Exactly, ⁓

Totally.

god yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Well, it’s funny you say that because it’s something that I do kind of think about now and again. mean, the one-to-one stuff obviously isn’t scalable because it is just me. So in my head, again, when I first started the business and my like grand non-plans, I had the idea for the HR Hub, which is my more kind of subscription based service. I had this idea of like, well, I’ll do the one-to-one for like a year or two. And then once I launched the hub.

I’ll just be doing that all the time and that would be scalable. And then I can start like growing my team and you know, I can, and now I’m like, still doing one-to-one. I love the hub, don’t get me wrong. And I’ve got some very loyal clients in there, but like it’s not big enough to sustain me full-time without still doing the sort of one-to-one thing. So it’s been a shift for me in terms of like understanding what I want from the business, what I want personally in terms of

I like being there for school pick up. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes I get a call from my accountant at half past two and they’re like, have you got a minute to chat? And I’m like, no, I am leaving now. Like, I know you’re just back from lunch, but this is the end of my day. So, you know, there are times that you do kind of get a bit truncated by these five hour days, but like we’re saying, you know,

Whilst my children are small enough to actually want me to pick them up and talk to them and be available for them, I am in a privilege that I can do that and I want to do it. So I really am happy with where my business is at the moment. I did also have a realisation that I do like the balance I have at the moment. I like the balance of the one-to-one and the

the hub because as I realised, you know, when you’re doing the one-to-one stuff, you get to go and sit in an office and you get to drink a hot cup of coffee and you get to talk to people that don’t live in your house. And you know, it’s quite, it’s quite a nice experience and commuting again when you’re not having to do it every single day, but you actually get to like sit on the train and listen to a podcast or, you know, watch.

last night’s episode strictly or whatever, you know, it’s, it’s not the worst place to be, you know, to have that decompression time. So I, I actually realised that I like the balance I’ve got at the moment. And for the time being anyway, know, touchwood that I can sustain it, but

I really like the balance of like the one-to-one stuff getting more in depth with some clients and then other clients that I am just like I just do an hour a month with them and they’re on their sort of handhold touchpoint set them on their path but like largely I’m not there on the day to day for them.

Victoria (47:04)
Yeah, it sounds like a

really nice blend because…

Katie Elliott (47:08)
And

this is it. like going back to saying how bored I was, I am never bored anymore. Like, and even if I don’t have loads of client work on, and again, like I suppose when I was first starting, saying about doing all the stuff on social media, et cetera, like I knew nothing about any of that. I had, that was how I filled my time, to be honest. I was learning how to market myself, like learning what that was all about, learning how to use Instagram, learning how to use…

Victoria (47:12)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Katie Elliott (47:36)
know, Canva and all these tools and things. So there was so much for me to learn and do that was, you know, for my business rather than working in my business. Yeah. So, and that has now flipped that the other way I’m like, God, I haven’t got any time to actually do any content. ⁓ But you know, it’s, ⁓ it’s not a bad place to be. And I’m like I said, I’m very.

Victoria (47:47)
In it, yeah.

Katie Elliott (48:03)
happy with the balance I have at the moment and ⁓ obviously I would love to be busier but mainly because I just want to take my children on holiday not because I actually want to be killing myself.

Victoria (48:16)
Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, well,

exactly. And it’s always kind of a bit of tension where money’s concerned and time’s concerned when you’ve got small children. And even you’ve got kind of tween ages. So, you know, there’s going to come a point where, you know, they don’t want to go on holiday with you. They’re going on holiday with their friends. And you’ve obviously got that in your mind’s eye. So you want to them on holiday now, but you don’t want to kill yourself so that you’re exhausted day to day in order to do that.

Katie Elliott (48:46)
No, exactly.

Victoria (48:46)
And

it is just about sort of constantly when you’re a mum kind of just acknowledging the season you’re in because it changes so quickly.

Katie Elliott (48:56)
Totally right, totally right. I mean, yeah, like the season I was in when they were little, like they neither of them, were dreadful sleepers. I was so tired all the time. And you just sort of have this like, will this ever not be my life? But they sleep, mean, now the bloody issue is getting the 11 year old out of bed. And I’m like, dude, come on. So.

Victoria (48:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, I remember, yeah.

Yeah.

Katie Elliott (49:22)
It’s payback for all the time. She dragged me out of bed at three in the morning. It’s like trying to get her out of bed for school. yeah, it’s a different season for sure.

Victoria (49:33)
Yeah, it’s all fun and games though, dealing with people, whether it be in work or at home.

Katie Elliott (49:40)
Yeah,

yeah. And obviously, you know, we haven’t really talked about it, but I did have a bit of a shift in my personal life. So a year ago, my husband moved out and we co-parent 50-50 now. So I do have more time to myself in a way that I haven’t had for, well, at least 11 years. But like, you know, even being married before that is…

it is quite a shift now of having time to myself and actually having full days to have two full days that I can work in a week now where I don’t have to abandon ship at three o’clock and go do the school run. I, you know, I am finding a new routine and you balance with all of that. Obviously.

Victoria (50:28)
That’s a massive

recalibration, isn’t it?

Katie Elliott (50:31)
Yeah,

yeah, it has been and obviously it’s been pretty tricky, financially, emotionally, all of the above. But, you know, I guess the thing is, is that it’s a different season and that’s sort of how I’m kind of thinking about it now, that, you know, the weekends I don’t have them are different.

Victoria (50:43)
Yeah, yeah.

Katie Elliott (51:00)
and I can sleep. Sorry, I sleep quite a lot when they’re not here and I’ve watched all of this series of Stranger Things and you know…

Victoria (51:14)
Yeah, but do you know what? Like, I totally understand the depth of this because yes, you can do all these lovely things. And actually I imagine there’s an element of you where you have that time to yourself and you have that opportunity for sleep and also just to binge watch the crappy TV and to just be and not have responsibility for anybody.

that that kind of from an energetic point of view that can like fill your cup so that when you have your children, you’re much more present, you’re all in, you’re appreciating them, you’ve got the energy to give them. And I do think one of the hardest things about parenting is the relentlessness and the fact that there is very little breathing space. So in that sense, it just gives you a little bit of time back. But also with that will come

Katie Elliott (51:42)
Hmm.

So, yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (52:01)
all sorts of complex emotions. Like that’s not what you wanted, although you can appreciate this time. That’s not how you imagined it. And it must also be painful at times to do that, to be without them.

Katie Elliott (52:03)
the

Yeah,

yeah and there’s this grief that you kind of go through of like you know we never got to go to Disney together you know and we didn’t get to you know there’s all these things that I sort of thought were in our future that suddenly aren’t so that has been a huge mental drain as you said like that that was it like I when it first all started happening that was

Victoria (52:19)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Elliott (52:45)
my main reaction was that I could not sleep enough. Like the mental exhaustion became physical. Like I just, would go to bed at the same time as the kids and I would just sleep because I just couldn’t, like functioning day to day was kind of enough. And then I was, I was done. So I do feel, no, was just gonna say I do feel energetically much more like myself again, you know, kind of two years down the line.

Victoria (52:50)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you kind of go on.

Katie Elliott (53:14)
⁓ And yeah, your point of like, have that energy now to give them when they are around, which I feel much better about.

Victoria (53:24)
Yeah, but then there’s a, do you feel like there’s a financial pressure that you perhaps didn’t have before because you had two incomes and because you had these things that you wanted to do, know, thinking back three years, you would foresee, yeah, we’re all going to go to Disneyland. That’s going to happen. We’re just going to pick a time and whatever it may be next year, maybe the year after. And then actually when you separate, you’re also separating your incomes, you know,

the financial burden then is on you and your business. And you’ve come from a point where actually your business lived within your ex-husband’s business. You know, it’s quite a leap. And of course there’s much more independence in the setup that you have now. But that you think, right, if I want to do these things, it’s kind of on you. And do you feel like that is more pressure on your business? Do you carry that with you in a way that you might not have before?

Katie Elliott (53:58)
Mmm.

Yes, Victoria. Let’s not talk about that right now. Yeah, no. ⁓

Victoria (54:19)
Is that horrible question?

No, but

I just think that’s worth acknowledging because you still want to do these things with your kids. you know, the situation’s changed, but it’s still a pressure, isn’t it?

Katie Elliott (54:27)
No.

It’s a massive pressure and you’re right, it’s not a pressure I had in the beginning and I was very privileged in that respect looking back now that I was able to just say like enough ⁓ and take the leap and I appreciate not everyone is in that privileged position. I don’t have that position anymore because yes, I do have to make money in a way that I didn’t have to when I first started out and you know, I’m trying to stay in our house and I’m trying, that’s my main focus to be honest in the next year or so is to get

all our finances sorted so that we can start the actual process of like properly getting divorced and stuff. And yeah, and then, yeah, I mean, they’ve been to Devon with me the last couple of years, that’s the extent of our holiday. They have a great time. We go with my sister’s family, go with my parents or their cousins, like they are perfectly happy. But again, it will come a point where they’re going to be like, could we not like go to an actual like…

you know, pool and a sunbed and a… Yeah, and don’t get me wrong, Mummy would quite like that again. Like, I would love to be at the point where, because again, the last time we went on holiday, holiday, like abroad, they weren’t big enough that I could just sit on the sunbed all day reading my book. I used to have to, you know, be in the pool with them and like stop them from, like, know, murdering each other. Yeah.

Victoria (55:37)
Yeah, they start getting more fancy ideas, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, do all the things or

drowning or yeah.

Katie Elliott (56:02)
Drowning,

yes, we actually, my nickname for my youngest is Drowny McDrowmerson because of her like constant, constant desire. Yes, she was a nightmare. Like, so it was that thing of I would love to go on holiday somewhere warm where I could just sit there now because we’d all just.

Victoria (56:07)
Suicide missions. ⁓

Katie Elliott (56:25)
a lovely time. mean last year in Devon I read a whole book in a week and I was like this is the start of the future. Like I was so happy. Me and my sister are little old ladies on the beach in our beach chairs with our books and like we just well I’m fine but yeah Nick’s in her like what are they called dry robe she’s not she doesn’t deal with the cold well just my sister but anyway.

Victoria (56:41)
and your coat.

Well, she doesn’t have any meat on the bone does she?

you know, I can see that though. ⁓ I’m really terrible as well. I’m always like in a coat on the beach and the kids don’t care though, do they? And this is the thing about the British holidays. Like we haven’t had any fancy holidays since we built this house because the financial pressure is just there and we have been abroad once with Alice to a COVID postponed wedding ⁓ and not since, but they don’t care when they’re little. And you’re right, it is a coming of age thing when they start to compare with their friends. But I think I do ⁓ kind of…

Katie Elliott (57:19)
No.

Victoria (57:26)
I do understand, I think it’s valuable and I really appreciate you sharing that experience because the thing is we can talk endlessly about business, but what is important to acknowledge all the time is that it’s 2025. We don’t have to, and nor should we, hide the fact that our businesses and our personal lives are absolutely intertwined. Like I imagine during those times when you were in the thick of that change,

Katie Elliott (57:49)
Yeah.

Victoria (57:54)
really heartbreaking change, I imagine. It’s, your business wasn’t getting all of your mental attention and it shouldn’t have. And you kind of have to just get through those times as best you can and kind of go into survival mode with it. know, Chris and I have found early parenthood very, very challenging. And we have separated twice and he has left the house twice.

Katie Elliott (58:01)
definitely not, no.

Yeah.

Mm.

okay.

Victoria (58:23)
And we’ve managed to put it back together. And hopefully we’ve put it back together permanently now. And it’s been really, really hard and really difficult, but I have foreseen exactly what you’re going through and imagined it for myself and thought about the money and all, cause it’s so complex. You’ve got all your emotions that are kind of, you’re holding tight in your chest all the time, but practically, and as a mom, you also have this responsibility.

Katie Elliott (58:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (58:51)
and definitely stuff like, can I stay in this house? You these are big questions. How is this all gonna work? And then straight away, and the reason I asked it was not to torment you, but because that had been my experience. Like, right, I need to suddenly become very successful and wildly wealthy. That’s what I need to do now. And actually work can be a distraction when you just don’t wanna think about what’s going on.

Katie Elliott (58:55)
Yeah.

No, that is a good point. like, yeah, you know, I keep saying like plan A win the lottery, plan B, let’s sort the business.

Victoria (59:22)
Yeah.

Plan A is not coming together, no.

Katie Elliott (59:28)
Well apparently you have to buy a lottery ticket to win, I mean what? No one told me that bit!

Victoria (59:34)
I know,

it’s expensive over time, plan A.

Katie Elliott (59:37)
Pretty expensive.

Anyway, so, ⁓ yeah, no, in all seriousness, like I have a very complicated relationship with money, like a lot of women, unfortunately, and again, kind of classic. I don’t know if it’s of our generation, but just all generations. like I did, we had without discussion kind of full

fallen into the camps of like, I was doing all the unpaid labour and he was doing all the financial labour and a lot of that then ended up falling into sorting out things like the car insurance and the house insurance and like planning the holiday budgets and all of that kind of stuff so when that is now all on me

It has been a huge shift for me mentally and… ⁓

Yeah, just sort of attitude wise as well, I suppose that like I did, to be perfectly honest, run away from that stuff most of the time. And sometimes would be going through spreadsheets sort of in tears, just like not really being able to kind of contemplate the numbers that I was seeing. But now I’m just so, I spurn again, it’s like, I don’t wish that it was the circumstances that had driven me to this, but like,

I have had to get much better with that. I have had to sit with some uncomfortable truths about my own spending and my own kind of habits around money and, you know, really look at proper budgets, proper…

monthly allowances etc etc so you know it’s all been a massive massive learning curve that I sort of wish I didn’t have to do on my own. I wish we’d been able to go through it together, I wish we’d been able to redistribute the child care to this more like 50-50 that we have now when we were still together because that’s the thing that’s absolutely wild as I said I think I said on a previous

podcast, but yeah, like, you know, this time I have to myself, this time where I only have to worry about me has not been my experience for so long. And I sort of do feel like I’m a little bit of a cautionary tale of like, don’t let, don’t let it get to this point before you have to redress it because I think some of this stuff could definitely have been dealt with sooner if we had confronted it sooner.

Victoria (1:02:00)
Mm.

Katie Elliott (1:02:21)
⁓ So it’s.

Victoria (1:02:22)
Yeah. And actually

your ex-husband’s probably doing more childcare now than he ever did.

Katie Elliott (1:02:28)
Way more! Oh my god, way more! I’m not even like,

and again, I’m not having a go. He’s a great dad. He’s so involved. He’s really, really… He really has taken to this in a way that I have found not surprising because he was always a great dad, but like, know, prior example, I went out with some of the school mums the other night and they were like, we never see you anymore. And I was like, well, I know because I only do like a couple of drop-offs and pickups a week, whereas I used to do every single…

one. So it is a massive shift that I have gone from being there five days a week to now only twice. Sometimes three, depending on like our, you know, our weekend, alternating weekend, et cetera. But like, yeah, sometimes I only do two drop-offs and two pickups in a week. And it’s like, that is nothing compared to where I was. So it is, it is that kind of thing. It’s just absolutely madness. You know, I used to joke.

Victoria (1:03:26)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (1:03:27)
I used to joke that they thought I was a single parent because they never saw him. And now I actually am. But they see him way more.

Victoria (1:03:39)
Yeah, it is, no, but it is, I imagine it is frustrating. And I don’t want to go into the ins and outs of it with you. It’s your private life, but it’s sad for you, I imagine, that you couldn’t have figured this out within your marriage. But I think what you’ve obviously gone through to

Katie Elliott (1:03:39)
No.

Victoria (1:04:06)
take ownership and take responsibility for all of these financial administration matters, know, all the insurances, bills and all of that stuff and kind of manage your money. I imagine that, I mean, I’ll ask, is there a part of you that kind of feels empowered by that? Like you are self-sufficient, you are independent, you know what you’re doing and actually those skills you can transfer into your business around spending and budgeting that that kind of makes you feel more capable.

Katie Elliott (1:04:36)
Yeah, 100%, 100%. And it’s a really good example. like, I recently did have to sort out a load of bills because our water bill was insane. And I realised it was based on projections and our meters been broken for years. So I went absolutely apeshit at the water company.

Victoria (1:04:38)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (1:05:02)
And, you know, they’ve reduced the monthly bill and they’re fixing the meter. So it might go down again and things like that. And, and then, you know, are like, are that some other bill was absolutely massive. I managed to cut it in half. So I was texting him and being like, right, I’ve sorted the water. I’ve done this. I’ve done that. And he just sent this message about like, ⁓ okay. And I thought, yeah, okay. I wish, I wish you hadn’t put me in this position, but I have dealt with it. I can do it. And it’s not, you know, it’s not that hard. It’s not that complicated.

Victoria (1:05:26)
But you could do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Elliott (1:05:32)
And then transferring it back to business. know, obviously, Nikki Elliott is my sister, Nikki Denson Elliott. can you cut that bit out? ⁓

Victoria (1:05:41)
⁓ I’ll cut that bit out, shall I?

Katie Elliott (1:05:48)
God. So she’s been doing a lot around pricing and ⁓ all of that and I’m looking at my pricing and I’m really seriously gonna start putting my prices up next year and a lot of that is all kind of based on a similar thing of like just backing myself more, backing my experience and my skills more, but also just sort of asking for what I’m worth.

and not underestimating myself because I think you do become quite small sometimes as a wife and a mother and you do lose yourself but I’m still here, I was always still here, I was always there, I never like disappeared but you do have to bend.

more than you were planning on sometimes as it turns out and it’s just like I said it’s not the way I wanted things to work out but it is what’s happened and I just I just want to move forward now like I said I am hopeful that we are doing the best we possibly can for our children we have like 50 50

Victoria (1:07:11)
Yeah.

Katie Elliott (1:07:14)
We’re recording this just before Christmas, like he’s coming over Christmas morning and we’re doing stockings together. This is my first Christmas without them, so I’m not terribly looking forward to that. But then we’re all going to the panto together, like the weekend in between Christmas and New Year, and then they’re back with me for like the after that. So, you know, we’re kind of we’re just finding a way through it. We’re making it work. ⁓ We try our best.

to be friends and friendly and, you know, touch wood, you know, we’re doing okay. And I think that’s the main thing is that like, we just don’t want it to be hideous because fortunately we do have examples of other people that we know where it has been absolutely hideous and we’ve both said, we definitely don’t want that. So.

Victoria (1:08:04)
Hmm.

Well,

it’s the children who suffer in those situations more than anybody else. And I think that just speaks to how much you both are committed to helping the kids through it, because these transitions are hard in their nature, but there’s so much you can do as parents to just take the pain so that they don’t have to. And it sounds like that’s exactly what you’re doing.

Katie Elliott (1:08:32)
That’s what we’re trying anyway. I, you know, talk to me in another 15 years when they tell me what dreadful mother I am. But for now, yeah.

Victoria (1:08:34)
Yeah.

I mean, they’ll all do that in 15 years, won’t they?

Wait till they get to like 35 years and then they’ll be singing our praises.

Katie Elliott (1:08:46)
I know, I keep saying that to my eldest when she’s

like, I know, because sometimes even in her tween age phase now, sometimes she’ll still like give me a cuddle and be like, I love you, mummy. And I’m like, going to remind you of this when you’re 15 and you tell me you hate me and slam the door.

Victoria (1:09:03)
Can I just get a voice note of this? Just play it back to you. Katie, I really appreciate you being so honest about that experience, because it’s still recent. It’s still quite raw. You’re still figuring your way through it. yeah.

Katie Elliott (1:09:05)
Yeah, I’m like, should we write this down? Let’s write this down. ⁓

I mean yeah, it’s still very much ongoing I have to say.

Like people keep saying, are you actually divorced? I’m like, no, I’ve not even started. Like what you talking about?

Victoria (1:09:28)
But it takes time.

Yeah, it takes time. Like all of that. It’s, you know, one, the hardest thing is obviously making the decision, but then all of that, it’s not like you get closure quickly either. So it’s a long process.

Katie Elliott (1:09:40)
No, the

admin of separating your lives is very, very intense. Let me tell you.

Victoria (1:09:47)
Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, but I’m really grateful. I’m sure there are women listening for whom this really helps. It really lands and you’re putting your life back together. You’re doing it in a different way and perhaps it’s not what you wanted, but you’re doing it. And I think you should be very proud of yourself, frankly.

Katie Elliott (1:10:05)
Thank you, Victoria.

Thank you, Victoria. You can send me little email saying, well done, Katie, you’ve done a hard thing.

Victoria (1:10:09)
I-

Yes,

that’s what I’ll do after this call.

Katie Elliott (1:10:15)
Okay, good to know. I’ll put that in my like storage of like, these are the emails I go to when I’m feeling, feeling I need a little pick up. I’ll be like, well done me.

Victoria (1:10:22)
Yeah, exactly.

So I have one last question for you before I let you go. Tell me what you would say now looking back to your eight year old self.

Katie Elliott (1:10:36)
Ooh, that’s interesting.

I have an eight-year-old self at home. Actually no, she’s a clone of my sister. She is not me. The older one is me. The older one is me, the younger one is definitely not me. What would I say?

Victoria (1:10:44)
Mm-hmm.

Alright.

Katie Elliott (1:11:00)
that you’re not going to be a journalist for Heat magazine but that’s okay, sad times but that’s okay and actually you will never ever read Heat now so you will survive without that in your life.

Victoria (1:11:07)
sad times.

Katie Elliott (1:11:21)
No, I think that probably the sort of the more genuine answer would be that, very cliched, but like things really don’t work out like you plan sometimes. But we have done hard things. We continue to do hard things. And, you know, you still have an amazing family who love you and you love them. You have the most amazing friends and

that just having a community of good people around you is just absolutely the best thing.

Victoria (1:11:59)
I love that. Yeah, we don’t have to put all our eggs in one basket. know, actually, if you look around, we often have more people in our corner than we perhaps give them credit for. And there are so many people rooting for us. Yeah, that’s lovely.

Katie Elliott (1:12:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, enough.

Yeah, thank you.

Victoria (1:12:23)
Tell me, Katie, where can everybody find you so that they can have you hold their hand through all of their HR trials and tribulations?

Katie Elliott (1:12:34)
So can find me on Instagram at HR.KT and my website is HRKT.co.uk. I occasionally dabble in LinkedIn, but it is not my natural habitat, shall we say. So, yeah.

Victoria (1:12:48)
That’s a good way of putting it.

Katie Elliott (1:12:52)
⁓ mainly Instagram or come and say hi on my website. I also have a, if anyone is looking to grow and is looking for just a bit more general kind of information, I do have a weekly newsletter that’s called HR Happenings, which I send out every Friday and I just will keep people updated. Obviously there’s lots going on with the employment law bill going through parliament, et cetera, et cetera. So there’s quite a lot of HR news out there at the moment.

If people want to keep up with that, can sign up to my newsletter as well.

Victoria (1:13:25)
Amazing. Great. I will put all of those links in the show notes and Katie, thank you so much for your time. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. I’ve learnt loads and yeah, it’s been brilliant. Thank you.

Katie Elliott (1:13:32)
Thank you.

Thanks Victoria.