Episode 1: Building A Life-Friendly Business With Erin Thomas Wong

Erin Thomas Wong (00:07)
I want women know don’t have to sacrifice everything and they don’t have to themselves out to achieve the success that they want to that looks like for them, and that it is possible to build a business on your own terms. sometimes that means thinking outside the box. Sometimes that means saying no to things.

that other people might say yes to, want them to feel empowered they can design their business to fit their life and not feel that they have to hide all their other responsibilities.

Victoria (00:49)
Hello and welcome to the Mum Means Business podcast, where we shine a light on inspiring women who have one thing in common. When they’re not managing tantrums, homework, pee-kits and play dates, they are busting their gut to create something from nothing, to turn their passion into a thriving business and build a better life for themselves and their families. We dig into what motivates devoted mothers to pursue entrepreneurship and how they integrate their work and family life.

I’m Victoria, your host, and if you’re an ambitious mum in need of some solidarity whilst navigating the messy middle of making your big dream a reality, then stick around. This is for you.

Victoria (01:27)
My guest today has built a name for herself as the life friendly business mentor. Since becoming a mom in 2008, she quickly realized that her old ways of working were not going to enable her to be the present mother that she wanted to be. So she left her career in TV production and took the leap into entrepreneurship. Erin Thomas Wong is now host of the life friendly business podcast, which has just completed its sixth series. Author of Mumpreneur Evolution,

And last year she was listed as a top 100 UK female founder for the hashtag I also a life-friendly approach to business, helping women to create success on their own terms without sacrificing time with their family or compromising their own wellbeing. Her online community brings women in business together to support each other as they strive for that elusive work life balance.

Personally, I look forward to seeing Erin’s Monday morning post every week as she settles in for her sacred CEO time at her favorite cafe with a delicious looking cup of coffee. Just one of the many acts of self care she advocates we all adopt. As someone who’s been known to push the boundaries between work and rest a little too far in the wrong direction, I can’t wait to hear Erin’s take on blending motherhood and entrepreneurship.

Erin, you are my first ever guest. Welcome to the Mom Meets Business podcast.

Erin Thomas Wong (02:43)
What an honour! Thank you so much for having me!

Victoria (02:47)
It’s a pleasure. I’m really excited for our conversation. me, let’s go back to the very beginning. You decided to become an entrepreneur at the moment when your life was very, very full. So what made you do it?

Erin Thomas Wong (02:49)
Me too.

So I always wanted to work in TV and I did it and I loved it and got married and got pregnant and thought I’m going to take off a year of maternity leave and I’m going to be an Earth mother and it’s going to be wonderful and I’m going to go and breastfeed my child in all the lovely cafes and I had this whole picture of how my life was going to be.

Victoria (03:27)
you

Erin Thomas Wong (03:28)
And then I ended up having a very traumatic emergency C-section. My milk didn’t come in. I couldn’t breastfeed. And my child, screened all the time and you know, actually he didn’t sleep through the night until he was three and a half years old. those first few months, I was like, who the hell am I? I don’t recognize this person. And kind of.

started to realise how would I return to my previous career where I was on call 24-7 if there were shoots going out, I would have to work late at the drop of a hat. And I just thought that’s not really the kind of life that I want. I literally, was so sleep deprived and anxious as well. was like, I can’t imagine travelling in London and doing that job.

So it was one of those really serendipity moments when a friend said to me she was going to the baby show at Earl’s Court and she said, I love this jewellery and it’s like my child’s fingerprint in silver I did that whole thing of looking at this website to see if they could come and do a group for my NCT group. And it came up with this thing saying, no one in your area franchise opportunity available.

And I thought, what does that mean? What’s a franchise? Like, is that, do they help you run a business? And it was literally that moment that kind of sparked something that I thought maybe I don’t need to go back to TV. Maybe there’s something else that I could do. So, you know, sleep deprived. I threw myself into researching what a franchise actually was. And when he was six months old, I was able to get voluntary redundancy from my TV job.

and I invested that money in a franchise and that was the start of everything.

Victoria (05:11)
That’s amazing, isn’t it? So it was literally becoming a mother That is what turned the tide for you. Do you feel like you…

Erin Thomas Wong (05:17)
Yes.

Victoria (05:18)
you had a kind of identity shift Of course you’re exhausted and it sounds like, I mean, I had a really traumatic birth with my first as well. And obviously it’s luck of the draw, but I think that does shake you physically and emotionally. And then you’ve got this baby to look after, but it sounds like your TV job was…

was quite fun and busy and frantic and then you find yourself in a completely different world. How was that identity shift for you?

Erin Thomas Wong (05:42)
It was ginormous. It was ginormous. And my friends and family were totally confused. why would you give up that job, you know, that you’d worked so hard to get to that point? And, I am very gregarious. I love being around people. And, you know, there you are making jewelry on your kitchen table on your own. And you know what, I can’t explain it really, because I did go through this massive shift in who I was and

I didn’t particularly like how I felt in those early days of motherhood because I felt really out of control very anxious and very sleep deprived and very isolated and alone. Even though I did have people around me, you can still feel very lonely, can’t you? me, this was something I could control. my confidence dropped hugely.

and has taken years to build up. So when I speak to women now who kind of imagine that I’ve always, you you must have always felt confident speaking and doing that. No, no, it’s taken me a long time and I would like to help them speed up that process because I think, yeah, I mean, my identity was very wrapped into working in TV. I loved nothing more.

Victoria (06:39)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (06:50)
than meeting someone in a bar and them saying, what do you do? And I’d say, I work in TV and their eyes would light up and I’d be like, yeah, It was really cool. I had And then now I was meeting people and saying, ⁓ I make jewelry. I run a little business. And I could hear myself, like belittling myself, but I still did it for a long time.

Victoria (06:56)
Yeah. It’s very cool.

that’s so typical. And this really fascinates me because I’ve done various things in my 20 plus years in working life. And when I started my photography business, I did exactly the same thing. I don’t know if it’s just your own insecurity or if it’s a kind of societal.

impression that you have but you do it’s my little business it’s it’s nothing it’s just yeah i take pictures of yeah so yeah i mean you just almost apologize as you’re telling people and then of course they’re not interested you could absolutely present yourself and say my gosh i make jewelry and i love it and it’s so gorgeous let me show you some pictures and this that i’m wearing now this is something i made and i made this one for this person you could get really excited and they would be excited because it’s not a little business it’s

Erin Thomas Wong (07:40)
Yeah.

Victoria (08:00)
it’s a business, but you go into it so apologetically that you underwhelm everybody that you tell about it. I think that’s, did you find that quite hard to navigate in those early days, having your own business?

Erin Thomas Wong (08:12)
Yeah and I absolutely, I still remember people would say to me, How’s the business going? And I’d say, yeah well you know this is going well, this is going well, but you know I’m still not making the money I need to make, And you could see them deflate as well. I would like to drink, they would deflate.

Victoria (08:27)
You’re depressing them.

Erin Thomas Wong (08:31)
And that went on for years, And it was only really when I started working on my own personal development And I was like, you know, I hate the way people perceive me. And then I’m like, actually, it’s the way I’m showing up. And I don’t know how they actually perceive me. That’s all in my own head. But like, if I say those things, of course they’re going to go, I’m sorry to hear that. You know? I’m like, no. So I had to make a real concerted effort when they say, how’s it going?

Victoria (08:42)
Yeah

Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (08:58)
I’d like, yeah, it’s going really well, thanks. And then shut up. Don’t say anything else.

Victoria (09:00)
Exactly. Exactly.

it’s so hard. And also what I found, I think because I had a sort of hiatus from my business and came back to it, I almost felt like I started at the start point again, because I pivoted and started taking photographs of different things. and it’s only…

really last year I sort of had to have a word with myself because if I say oh no it’s kind of okay, it’s a bit of slow season or sometimes I would try and be really hilarious and be like oh no I’ve got no work as if that was funny but then obviously what happens is people think that the service or product that you’re supplying must be crap so there’s no social proof they’re not inclined to invest or help they kind of imagine that you’re kind of drifting you’re on the way out

It doesn’t encourage people to even support you.

Erin Thomas Wong (09:47)
It doesn’t. And the fact is people need to believe in us to buy from us. And if we don’t believe in ourselves, you’re not going to get very far.

Victoria (09:55)
Yeah, and I think very difficult and I imagine we’ll get onto it later. It’s part of the work that you’re trying to do to help women to step into that. Because I feel like for whatever reason, it doesn’t come very naturally. So tell me what happened after your jewellery business. Because I know you’re not making jewellery right now on your kitchen table.

Erin Thomas Wong (10:13)
No. So

I started the jewelry business and had that amazing epiphany of, wow, this is what it’s like running your own business. And this is why when I would be trudging up to the tube to work in TV, that there’d be people sitting in cafes with their laptops and I’d be like, how could they get to do that? And then I was like, ⁓ this is what happens. And so I got a little bit addicted to starting other businesses. And the second was…

Victoria (10:32)
You

Erin Thomas Wong (10:39)
Ealing Mums in Business, which was a network in West London where I lived at the time. And then a couple of years later, I set up Pitter-Patter, the hub for bubs, were venues for baby and toddler classes. And obviously you can see these were all the jewelry that I made was about baby’s fingerprints. So it was all around mothers. So they actually worked really well together in terms of building my brand awareness

Then we had a curveball because we started talking about leaving London and we found a house in Bournemouth and then my husband got headhunted for a job in Abu Dhabi. So I was like, you are kidding me, but we’d already decided to kind of leave London with our two kids by then.

Victoria (11:12)
Wow.

Erin Thomas Wong (11:19)
So we thought, okay, why not? So we went out there and to be honest, it was one of the hardest things we’ve ever done. I could do a whole episode on why it was so hard. But when we were out there, I obviously felt so disconnected from all of my community that I’d actively built around me in West London. I’d sold the jewelry business by then. And so that’s when I thought, right, I need to create an online business.

that I can run from anywhere in the world that will encompass all of the things that I’ve loved doing with these other three businesses. And that’s when I started kind of learning about digital marketing and things like that. this business launched when I was in Abu Dhabi. And the funniest thing about it was that my husband was working at the Warner Brothers.

World in Abu Dhabi, that’s what he was building. And the day that that was in the newspaper, the big national UAE newspaper, they got a tiny strip and I had a full page spread with my face saying that I was not in this business. So it was so funny. And because obviously women in business over there was not really a thing back then.

Victoria (12:06)
Okay?

amazing! ⁓

that’s funny.

Yeah,

yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (12:27)
I think it’s probably slightly better now. So I created this business and then that’s what I brought home with me to the UK and continued building. So this business is now nine years old, but it’s been through iterations. I’ve rebranded, three times over that period, but I’m here to stay now as a life-friendly business.

Victoria (12:41)
Hahaha

So tell me what does the business do and how has that evolved? So when you were over in the Middle East, was that specifically tailored to expats or women in business over there? And how did that change when you brought it back home?

Erin Thomas Wong (13:02)
So it was women in from anywhere in the world. Obviously I already had a network from kind of West London. So it was like, you know, reaching out to those people as well and basically saying, you know, if you can’t get out and do in-person networking because either that’s not available in your area or maybe you’ve got kids and you can’t go out to these things, then this is like an online community. Back then that was my USP, of course.

When lockdown happened, everyone went online. But it was all about creating an online community and support. I, at first, I thought I would be able to monetize it through selling other people’s courses. So by being an affiliate, I learned loads about affiliate marketing. And of course, the big lesson there was, no one’s going to buy something from me that I haven’t done myself and that I don’t even know, you know, just…

like you can see all this stuff online about just sell these other people’s courses well no they’ve got to know like and trust you and you need to have first-hand experience with with those things that you’re selling so I didn’t feel like I was able to teach them anything you know I was way too low down on the self-doubt to think that I could actually be the teacher here so when I launched the membership which is called the cocoon

Victoria (14:14)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (14:19)
I got lots of guest experts in. So I’d met so many experts over the years of running my businesses that I invited them in and said, can you run, you know, master classes for my members? So that’s how it started. And then gradually, as my I would start doing some of the training and then I’d get really good feedback from people. And I was like, you know, maybe, maybe I should do more of this. And so as the years have gone on, I’ve basically

step forward as doing a lot of the training. I still do get experts to come in as well, but I think that’s all been my evolution as a business owner is realising the value that I can bring from having all these different businesses and juggling it with two kids. And it’s taken me a while to get here. And I think that’s

Like I said at the beginning, whole thing that people assume that you’ve always been in the position you are in now, but we all start at zero, and then it’s just about that journey that you go on

Victoria (15:15)
No, absolutely. And I think, I mean, we’re starting here with the first episode of the podcast. So I know about starting from zero. I think it’s interesting because you actually have that firsthand experience

Do you feel like it’s easier now for you to make that connection with women because they can see the journey that you’ve been on?

Erin Thomas Wong (15:33)
Yes, I think that, you know, I am much more confident in myself and my kind of areas of knowledge and wisdom. And I’m leaning into that more rather than feeling like that’s not enough. I know it’s enough now because I get that reflected back to me. I think, you know, I’ve worked really hard to build a community of women around me.

And I feel like, you know, I’ve got quite a small corner of the world, but I’m making a positive impact for those women. And I think that, the whole online messaging around business and entrepreneurship, it really gets to me a lot of the time, you know, the idea that we need to hustle and grind and sacrifice everything. And there’s a very kind of masculine narrative out there, which is not working for…

Most of the women that come to me, you know, they’re feeling burnt out. They’re feeling like they’re failing because they can’t keep up with that. But also it’s the crazy promises that these bigger online businesses and bigger coaches are making about how much money you should be earning as a business owner. And I think, you know, obviously I’ve gone through my own self doubt about you know, is it, is it okay to say that it’s not all about the money? Is it okay to say that because you know, actually.

Victoria (16:48)
Or will anyone listen?

Erin Thomas Wong (16:51)
Yeah, will anyone listen? Will anyone listen to me if I say, do you know what, I want to earn good money, I want to be able to have a nice life and go on holidays, but actually I also want to be there for my kids to pick them up from the school gate. And now for my mum who needs extra support, like is it okay to say that out loud? And now I know that in my corner of the world, it’s safe to say that out loud. And I want to, you know, create

a space where people can talk honestly about it. And I feel like, you know, through my podcast as well, which is, I didn’t realize it’s actually almost four years since I launched that, you know, people are now more and more coming to me saying, I’ve listened to all of your podcast episodes and then they’re coming to work with me. So it’s like, it’s been a very slow evolution to kind of me leaning into everything that I’m saying and speaking.

Victoria (17:26)
Incredible.

Erin Thomas Wong (17:42)
absolutely honestly, you know, you won’t get any, like, pretense with me. I say it how it is, and I feel much more confident in myself to be true to my own values and my own measures of success.

Victoria (17:54)
So okay, on that, and I think it’s incredible and I congratulate you on the podcast because it’s an amazing achievement and you’ve got your book. So with all of this content that you’re putting out into the world, what’s the change that you want to see?

Erin Thomas Wong (18:06)
I want women know don’t have to sacrifice everything and they don’t have to themselves out to achieve the success that they want to that looks like for them, and that it is possible to build a business on your own terms. sometimes that means thinking outside the box. Sometimes that means saying no to things.

that other people might say yes to, want them to feel empowered that, they can design their business to fit their life and not feel that they have to hide all their other responsibilities. So there was a stat recently that 61 % of women feel that they have to hide their caring responsibilities.

No wonder so many people are getting burnt out. And I did an interview years ago now with a woman who was really successful and she, gave me goosebumps and it still does every time I say it. She said she was in the school playground picking up her daughter and a client called and without thinking she answered the phone and she was like, hi, I’m really sorry it’s so noisy. I’m just at Waterloo. And she said, I put the phone down.

and thought, why on earth didn’t I say I’m in the school playground picking my daughter up? And I think we can all resonate with that because we feel like it makes us less serious, less professional, less ambitious. And I mean, what the hell? This has got to change.

Victoria (19:24)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I suppose if you come from a corporate background, you’re probably more inclined to fall into that kind of.

institutional behaviour is it just about speaking more honestly and saying you’re at the school gate every time is it about

putting that out in your content as a small business owner? What do you advocate we do?

Erin Thomas Wong (19:55)
I think that we need to speak more honestly. We need to be honest and yeah, put it out there as a fair representation of what our life is like. know, one of the top challenges for female entrepreneurship is the fact that women are often the primary carers. And let’s be real about that and what that looks like. And I think we need more relatable role models to be talking about.

juggling those things. It doesn’t mean anything to me to see a seven figure female founder who’s got a nanny and a driver and all that. I don’t care about I want to see someone who’s real, who’s trying to juggle those things. sadly, do think that society devalues mothers. we kind of belittle motherhood.

Victoria (20:28)
you

Erin Thomas Wong (20:42)
rather than saying, wow, what an amazing contribution to society, and I feel like so many women are between a rock and a hard place because, you know, we don’t want to necessarily just be the primary carer staying at home raising the children. We also want to have a career. But it’s like that whole quote about, what is it about work like you don’t have children and parent like you don’t have work.

how do we balance these things? I talked before about how I felt very out of control when I was a new mum and running my own business has given me the control of who I surround myself with and who I work with.

So I’ve been able to choose to work with people who get it if I have a family emergency, you know? But not all of us have that freedom to choose who we work with.

Victoria (21:27)
Luxury, yeah.

Do you think that it’s that strive for a better balance that drives a lot of women to start their own business? As you did,

is it purely a drive for flexibility and to have some autonomy, to have some agency over your life and your schedule, your calendar, to make work fit around you? Or is it also, do you think, reclaiming of identity and asserting yourself, I’m valuable and I’m going to do a thing? And what…

Does the role of motherhood play in that? You we have these children and we want to emulate something about, you know, my mom did X, Y, Z. how do you think that all fits together?

Erin Thomas Wong (22:09)
I think there are two things that drive many of the women I work with and that’s flexibility and fulfillment. They want to make a positive impact. So, so often, they are heart led, they’ve seen a gap that they want to fill or that they want to do something differently. You know, they’ve worked for the big corporates, they’ve had that professional career, it hasn’t.

Victoria (22:18)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (22:32)
fulfilled them or it hasn’t made the change that they want to see. So I feel like it’s like that’s the kind of the goal for so many is to have the flexibility, but also to do something they love, which they know is going to impact other people. And yeah, I think being, you know, a great role model to our children is really important. And, still the schooling system, which is just not designed for the world that we’re living in now.

is forcing them into boxes of, you want to be this or do you want to be this? And actually, you know, with the online world, there are so many different things that we can do to bring in an income. And I’m not talking about being a TikTok influencer, like my kids think, easy way, I’m a TikTok influencer. are so many different things that we can

So my kids are now 12 and almost 17, 17 this week, which is crazy. But, you know, basically the whole of their lives, I’ve been working for myself. So they’ve been involved, they’ve been, you know, doing flyering for me at events and helping me set up for things And I think as they get older,

it’s easier to explain to them why mummy’s really busy at the moment and what it means for mummy to be busy and you know when they’re really little it’s so hard and the mum guilt is there and you know and also the mum guilt because you know you actually want to work you know you feel guilty for working but actually you really want to work so then you feel guilty for rather working than pushing them on a swing and it’s just like this constant

thing, but just for those that have got little kids now, it does get easier as you can start to speak to them and they can understand a bit more about, why now is a particularly busy time. and also actually, I have to say more and more other reasons for people starting their own business is their own health is suffering from working in the

the nine to five, nine to six, nine to seven world that we’ve created for ourselves, their own house is suffering or their children are suffering in the school system and, you know, either they’re in and out of appointments or they’re homeschooling. So it just feels like we are in this time of massive change where people are speaking up about the fact that the structure that we have is just not working for lots of different types of people and children.

And so this is where we’ve got to be like, right, okay, how can I design my life to work in a way that’s gonna support that rather than just feeling like our only option is to be pushing against it the whole time and ending up ill and burnt out.

Victoria (25:05)
There’s so much in there, so much. I mean, yeah, my children are four and two, so I’m very much at that early stage. And I really, I really feel that guilt. And also, but it’s just guilt’s about your thoughts almost before you even get to your actions that, you know, your child is wanting to connect with you in a moment. And you, but you just really need to send that email. and you just, you you choose the child.

but just the thought that, you know, it might be a really important email and you just have to say, you’re going to have to wait, mommy is just going to be two minutes, I’ve got to go and that’s that. my eldest is starting school in September, which is exciting. But I did hear the Women’s Business Podcast

interview with a lady who had set up her own school and she was basically talking about the radical ideas that they’re implementing there and saying, really, the school system hasn’t changed since she was in school, the standard school system, which is, you know, maybe 30, 40 years ago. And our world has shifted beyond recognition.

Erin Thomas Wong (26:07)
Daniel Priestley was talking about how, you know, basically our school system is set up for the industrial revolution and we’re now living in the digital revolution and it needs to change. But I wanted to say as well about, you know, the school, the school terms and school holidays, because that is a massive transition that you’ll be going through.

Victoria (26:17)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (26:26)
And you know, it’s really easy to feel so frustrated because you’ve just got into the rhythm of working, And then there’s another flipping school holiday

The hardest thing for me is to have one leg in business and one leg in mum hat and finding that balance and just that constant push-pull during the holidays. But what I would say is the sooner that you can lean in to the school holidays as a time to change pace and actually enjoy that change of pace, the better it feels because…

We can’t change it. The school holidays are there. And you can either feel really annoyed and frustrated every time a holiday is coming and get in a panic about how you’re going to juggle it, or you can basically plan your year around it. And then you yourself lean into that change of pace and refill your own cup during those holidays.

times and for me that’s been the winner.

Victoria (27:20)
it’s coming back to that sort of pull of priority, isn’t gonna really work on this because, I think it’s that pull that causes stress and it causes tension.

imagine it takes a lot of planning, you know, ahead of the summer holidays, the half terms, I think I could quite easily lean into a nice sort of slower week. And actually, you know, we don’t have that much time with our children. And as a photographer, a family photographer, I’m always saying to people, know, you spend 75 % of the time you’re going to spend with your children with them before they are 12.

So after they’re 12, spent three quarters of your time that you’re ever gonna spend with them. And they start to drift away very quickly. So these are precious times. And I really am conscious, I don’t want to look back and think that I was just stressed or that they wanted me and I was just pushing them away in some sense because I wanted to go over here and do this for my business.

Erin Thomas Wong (28:12)
and this is why we need to put our boundaries in place. because mum guilt is really, really hard to deal with. and it sucks the joy out of everything you’re doing if you’re just feeling guilty all of the time. So all we can take from that is right, something doesn’t feel good here.

what can I do to make it feel better and decide for yourself what that looks like. I like working early in the morning. So now my kids are older. If I need to, I can say, right, do you know what? I’m going to do work at like 6.30 for an hour or two hours, and then I can enjoy the rest of the holiday day with them at home.

It’s thinking about, I get any help and support so I can go out of the house and get those work things done? So you can almost create that division for yourself between work and home, because this is the hard thing about working from home. But also it’s like, you like you say, sometimes you just have to work and we have to be okay with the fact that, I’ve got to, I’ve got to do this today. And it means that the kids are going to sit on their screens, but do you know what?

that’s what’s got happen. And I think having that kind of reflection time for ourselves and also thinking about what the non-negotiables are, what are the things that you really don’t want to miss out on, the things that you’ll regret, what are those things? And then ring-fencing them so that you’ve got an idea in your head of where those boundaries are. And also you can share them with partners or whoever’s looking after the kids or if your parents are helping.

and just kind of get those things in place so that you’ve got everything you need to thrive and not just feel guilty all the time.

Victoria (29:44)
Yes, all very sensible,

So tell me tools do to the women in your community to help them define…

Erin Thomas Wong (29:46)
Yeah.

Victoria (29:53)
their non-negotiables and help them define their boundaries and put these things in place because we’re all starting businesses with no idea what we’re doing I’m going to hazard a guess. We’ve got an idea. We’re passionate about it. We’re seeking that fulfillment. We want that flexibility.

But in terms of boundaries, mean, we’ve discussed it and I imagine it’s the same for a lot of women. bleeding all over the place just trying to manage it all on you as well as all your family responsibilities. So tools do you give to women in your community to help them with that?

Erin Thomas Wong (30:24)
I think with boundaries, what might be easier is to think about what’s not feeling good right now. And, so often we’re saying yes to loads of things that we haven’t got time to do, we don’t really want to do, but we feel like we should be doing.

that’s pulling us in different directions. You know, feeling irritated by clients contacting us on WhatsApp, for example, at 10 o’clock at night, and then taking that moment to reflect and thinking, okay, but sometimes I reply to them immediately when they do that. sometimes it is like admitting, okay, actually, I haven’t managed people’s expectations.

like I would like to hear. And you know, one evening you might enjoy working and so you’re replying to people on social media. The next evening you want to switch off and you want to enjoy Netflix and then you feel really annoyed when someone messages you and then you feel like they’re going to expect a reply because I gave them a reply last night. So it’s about thinking about where you’re feeling really stretched and where you’re feeling the mum guilt and you know, where you’re feeling irritated,

because so many of us are people pleasers as well and when you’re doing the things that are in your zone of genius they might feel easy in inverted commas to you so you’re like I don’t mind helping them with that because it’ll only take 10 minutes I don’t mind giving them an extra half an hour because of this do you know what that’s not sustainable so it might feel okay right now but one day you are going to say that is it I’ve had enough

So kind of being really self-aware. And then when you start talking through with other people as well, you hear what’s been bugging them or what’s helped them solve that problem. And you’re like, my goodness, that’s my problem too. So I think, you know, creating that space for discussion really, really helps. But recognising the fact that we don’t have never-ending energy. So I love the quote, like every time you say yes to something,

You’re also saying no to something else. Like we were just saying, when you say yes to sending an email, you’re saying no to your child in that moment. Sometimes you’ve got to do that, but we’ve got to make that decision it’s going to be a yes and when it’s be a no. And we need to be making the decision for the right reason, not because we’re a people pleaser.

Victoria (32:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, I think it’s that word should, isn’t it? Because it’s people pleasing, it’s my nemesis. And I think as well, it’s all generational to a certain extent. You know, I grew up watching my mom.

constantly self-sacrifice. You would just do anything for anybody and it’s lovely and that’s the thing as well. It’s hard because you do want to be generous and you do want to be giving and support the people around you but you also have to show that part of your care responsibility is to yourself it’s like shouting from the rooftops I’m important to.

And I love, this is the thing about your CEO time. And I just, see it every Monday morning and like, I need to schedule mine. Put that cup of coffee and just a bit of time for yourself. So tell me about that. When did you start doing that?

Erin Thomas Wong (33:25)
CEO time is a game changer. So I started doing must be like three or four years ago. Do you feel like you’re like before COVID, after COVID? feel like this is like, so it was after COVID. But yeah, I think, CEO time is so good for so many things

Victoria (33:36)
Yeah, they’re different chapters.

Erin Thomas Wong (33:43)
For me, I do it on a Monday morning and I can transition from being mum over the weekend to back to, okay, I’m working on my business now. It also means that I don’t feel as panicky on a Sunday thinking about the week ahead because I know that on a Monday, I don’t have any calls before 11 o’clock so I can go out and have this time. And it allows me to take an overview of everything that’s going on. I look at my to-do list, what I’ve ticked off, what I haven’t ticked off.

whether the things that I haven’t ticked off are still as relevant, are they still a priority? Because can spend so much of our time busy on the small things that aren’t actually moving the needle our business. And so it’s taken that moment to think, right, it’s coming up to the end of the term, for example. I know that I’m going to be slowing down for work. What needs to happen to get things in place for that?

which of these things are the most important and then I’ll star them. I mean, you know, I’m talking like pen and paper. People have all different fancy ways of doing this, but I just like my notebook, vanilla latte. That’s my drink of choice. And yeah, it’s, you know, the other thing that I talk about is the snow globe brain and this allows your snow globe brain to settle. So if you imagine a snow globe shaken up or the snow is everywhere, you cannot see clearly through that water.

And you can’t make the best decisions from that place. That’s where we make the knee jerk reactions. That’s where we do things that, you know, we rush emails to people and we rush decisions and then we might regret them. So we need to allow time to put the snow globe down, let the water settle clear. And then we can make a plan from there. And that’s what CEO time allows you to do. But it’s also like, do you know what? am, I’m the leader of this business.

And I’m the one that needs to make the decisions. you know, very much instead of that small business mindset of I’m just doing a small business, it’s like, no, okay, this is time for me to work on my business now. And, you know, this is such a simple thing to be implementing and it will make all the difference to how you’re showing up for your business.

Victoria (35:26)
Yeah.

Do you think it helps you elevate your mindset to that level then? Just prioritizing this time, because it is a different mindset when you’re working in your business and when you’re working on your business. There’s no strategy when you’re working in it. You know, when you’re fulfilling orders or you’re sending emails to clients or you’re doing your and then suddenly you’re tidying the house. You know, it’s all chaotic, isn’t it? But do you feel like that space?

Erin Thomas Wong (35:49)
Yes.

Victoria (36:09)
makes you feel like it’s bigger,

Erin Thomas Wong (36:12)
Yes, and for me, it’s all about self leadership. And I think as small business owners, and especially soul openers, we need to learn how to lead ourselves and how to get the best out of ourselves. And, you know, if you think about it, when you’re employed by someone, the first thing you need to do on a Monday morning is sit down and get back to those customers and those clients, like you’re paid to do this, right? But now you’re running your own business and your business.

Victoria (36:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (36:39)
actually comes before your clients. So, you know, I get, especially for, VAs and online business managers, they feel that pressure of, but people are waiting to hear from me. But, you know, could they wait till half 10 on a Monday? I think they probably could, you know, and actually you’re going to be much more level-headed. I had a client who ran a party business and her Monday mornings were just insane because she’d have all the parents ringing up about their child’s party coming up.

wanting to ask all the questions would literally be tied to her phone and she’d get off the phone so exhausted and not have done any of the other things that she needed to do. And so we talked it through and I was like, why don’t you turn your phone off? And she was like, And it was like, it’s not life and death. You could turn your phone off and get that other stuff done first and then turn your phone on.

Victoria (37:21)
She pulled that face, yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (37:31)
and deal with those phone calls. just literally revolutionized the way that she felt about work on a Monday. And so I think it’s easy to forget that we have the power to make those little changes, but we

Victoria (37:44)
so much of that is about overwhelm, isn’t it, I suppose, because you start your Monday morning, and especially if you’ve got children, you’ve probably had a busy weekend, you’re probably exhausted on Monday morning, or at least I am. And so you start and you’re immediately hit with demands. And you’ve started this business because you want to serve people with your product or your service, and you feel passionate about that. But I think if you are launched upon…

like that first thing on a Monday morning, there’s just no space to breathe. It actually feels like the perfect time to just go and be by yourself and have a cup of coffee and just gather yourself is, it’s those transition moments, isn’t it, as you described, when you’re moving from one role to another. ⁓

Erin Thomas Wong (38:24)
And I have

to say, you know, this is the honest truth I always wanted to be able to do the school run. that was one of my driving factors, but my goodness, my son is a talker. So we would, on a Monday morning, it would be all the stress of have you got everything you need? You get out the house, 15 minute walk, question after question after question after question, deep and meaningful questions. And my head would just be fried.

Victoria (38:35)
Ha

Wow.

You

Erin Thomas Wong (38:50)
absolutely fried and sometimes he’d be like, mummy why aren’t you and I’m really sorry Milo I’m trying to think about what else I need to do today and literally I’d drop him off at the school gate and just be in recovery mode and then we seem to think that we can then just sit down at our desk and get straight into work it does fascinate me how easily we think that we should be able to transition between these different things and I think that’s where a lot of

Victoria (39:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (39:16)
this burnout and overwhelm is coming from that, you know, we’re just on the go mentally, even if we’re not physically, And we need to allow our brains time to settle because that’s when we can get creative, our brain is nice and calm like the snow globe.

Victoria (39:30)
Yeah, I think that’s really important about the creativity. Firstly, I love that he’s a talker. My mum spent years driving us to school and back and my brother insisted on sitting in the front and he would not say a word and often he’d go to sleep and she would think, well, it’d be better if you were in the front, then at least we could have a conversation. Because that’s part of why you want to do the school run, because you want to hear those random thoughts that are occurring to them at that time in the morning or you want to hear how their day is after school. So at least you got that.

which is great. But yeah, creativity. I think I’m really guilty of actually believing that I can transition immediately. And I think be a spectrum there. but the problem is if you keep doing that, you just become so used to being productive constantly.

There’s no settling of the snow globe. And your creativity completely dries up and you’re almost delivering, either delivering content for your own visibility for your business or you’re delivering your service from a point of, and it’s not overt, but a sort of low lying panic

because you’re just running and dashing around from one thing to another and shifting gears, isn’t it really? You you go straight from, I mean, with my daughter, it’s how many princess dresses does she have to try on before breakfast? And is she or isn’t she allowed to wear one to preschool? And the answer is no, she’s not allowed to wear one to preschool and ideally just one princess dress. But we have this every morning and you’re trying to get them fed and you’re trying to get them out the door and shoes on and all of that.

and then you have the conversations in the car and arguing what they’re gonna listen to. And then you finally drop them off and two minutes home straight onto the computer. And that two minutes home, I’ll probably put a podcast on and just try and absorb some information. Whereas really I should just sit very, very quietly. But I think you can get into this sort of roller coaster of.

of shoulds as well, because I would think, I should put a podcast on because I should learn something that’s going to help me in my business it’s all the shoulds and it’s actually just choosing those things over choosing your own downtime, which comes back to what we said before. You know, yes to that is a no to something else. And that no is self care.

Erin Thomas Wong (41:33)
Yeah.

And you were talking before about the elusive work-life balance. you know, my view on work-life balance is that it’s a feeling only we can judge it for ourselves. if it’s not feeling good to you, then we need to do something to change it. And,

me saying, you know, only work in school hours and I only do that. And like during the holidays, I don’t take any calls and all those kinds of things. Like that’s what works for me. I’m not saying that that’s what everyone else should do. And we need to work out that for ourselves. And, you know, like you say about constantly being on the go, some people seem to thrive like that, but I do feel like more and more, I’m hearing more stories of those people then burning out. So we need to…

kind of learn how to pace ourselves. I’ve got these lovely three jars with little beads in and one’s business, one’s life and one’s you. And, you know, obviously the beads do not represent time because that’s impossible to spend equal amount of time. But what often happens is the business jar gets overflowing when we’re, in a really busy period.

the family jar gets depleted and then you feel guilty. That’s where the mum guilt comes in. And the you jar is like scraping the bottom of the barrel. And then, yes, yeah. And then other times something happens with the kids or your parents and the family jar is overflowing. The business is depleted. We feel guilty that we’re not working on the business and we’re upset about that. And once again, the you jar.

Victoria (42:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dust. It’s dust.

Erin Thomas Wong (43:05)
is practically empty. So for me, those three jars are kind of kind of need to have them balanced across the three and that’s a feeling, it’s not time, it’s how it feels for you right now and that’s something that we need to keep checking in on.

Victoria (43:21)
It’s such an interesting analogy because I cannot imagine a scenario for most women where the U jar is overflowing and family and business are just sort of lying low. I just can’t see it. I mean, really what we’re working to all the time, is just get it up to a third. The idea of it overflowing is still seems so far away.

Erin Thomas Wong (43:29)
I know.

Victoria (43:42)
don’t you do, an overnight for your CEO time?

Erin Thomas Wong (43:45)
I…

Yes, I so I did do this quarterly and this year I haven’t done it quarterly actually which is interesting and I haven’t felt the need to so that’s once again about the evolution but for a few years every quarter I took myself away for two nights and it’s this lovely New Forest Hotel and it’s two nights because you need to have the whole day in the middle from waking up to going to sleep

Victoria (43:54)
Okay.

amazing.

Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (44:08)
I don’t have to worry about anyone else. I don’t have to think about mealtimes, none of that, just being in my own company. And, you know, that’s been a huge shift for me probably since I turned 40 was, realising that actually I really enjoy my own company because for so long, I always depended on other people to make me happy.

And that is an amazingly powerful feeling to have that I know what makes me happy and I can take myself away and be in my own company. And I get so much done. don’t put pressure on myself to work. It just naturally, the creativity flows because I’ve got no one else in my head. and I know it’s a luxury. I absolutely appreciate that.

Victoria (44:46)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (44:51)
I’m lucky that my husband can be at home to look after the kids. And actually these days, it’s easier for us to go away separately than to have someone look after both kids and the dog. So we’ve just really learnt into that.

Victoria (45:01)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.

And again, that’s just about finding what could work for you in that sense. But I imagine waking up that morning must be just this sort of light, light sensation just through your whole body.

Erin Thomas Wong (45:15)
It is. I get

very spiritual when I go there. I’ve got crystals and I always take them and I have them under my pillow and I’m all like, this is the version of me that I want to, you know, it’s wonderful.

Victoria (45:20)
⁓ yeah.

No, it’s

great. And also interestingly, like what you say, you appreciate your own company now.

in comparison to when you were in your TV production career, and I think that’s so typical when we’re in our twenties, know, life is all about your friends and your colleagues and the drink after work. but you’re not, I don’t think, very aware of yourself. You know, in comparison to, I mean, I’ve just turned 40.

And I feel so much happier in my own skin in that sense. And I love being by myself. And I think it gives you more energy for when you do go out into the world, you appreciate those experiences more because you’ve settled and it’s coming back to the snow globe.

Erin Thomas Wong (46:01)
validation from within is another game changer because we’re just so brought up to look for validation externally our whole lives. And when you take that time to feel good about yourself and about what you’re doing, that just makes everything so much easier.

Victoria (46:03)
Yeah.

And I imagine it radiates through your business as well.

I think if you are comfortable in what you can deliver and the service you can offer, then that does radiate. But as we go back to that conversation we had earlier, if into the world sort of apologizing for yourself, and that does come down to personal work, doesn’t it really? Is that something that you kind of advocate that everybody does in your community?

Erin Thomas Wong (46:36)
It does.

100%. And I think people think it’s fluffy. It’s not fluffy. This is is foundational stuff. If you want to be successful in business, you have to work on yourself first.

Victoria (46:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what would you say to your eight-year-old self now?

Erin Thomas Wong (46:56)
Do you know what, that makes me feel a little bit emotional because my son had sports day yesterday and I was remembering how much I hated sports day because I was the fat girl, unfit, couldn’t do any of the things and I literally just absolutely hated it and just felt so self-conscious think I would just say, ⁓ that’s really, it’s really sad, isn’t it?

Victoria (47:00)
Yeah.

Erin Thomas Wong (47:20)
It is, I mean, it sounds so cliche, but it’s just like, lean into being yourself. good enough. You’re brilliant. And, you know, we’re all so different and we need to really learn how to leverage our good qualities. And that’s what I’ve been able to do is learn what I’m good at and recognise what I’m not so good at and get support in those areas. But just, yeah, just don’t feel like you have to change for other people.

Victoria (47:38)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, and I suppose that’s part of our job as mums is to help our little people to not lose that sense of self so that they have to refine it again when they get to our age.

Erin Thomas Wong (47:58)
Yeah.

but I also wonder whether it’s just the journey of life that we all have to go through. It’s like, you you mentioned about childbirth, like it doesn’t matter if anyone had told you like how horrendous it could be because we’d still do it, wouldn’t we? We’d still do it. And it’s like sometimes that is a journey of self-discovery, but I wish that it hadn’t taken me until my forties to really feel comfortable in myself.

Victoria (48:02)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

But what you’re doing now, inviting women in business to join your community is presumably, I’m not putting words in your mouth, to try and help them make those leaps and get to where they need to be more quickly.

Erin Thomas Wong (48:35)
Correct, yeah, absolutely.

Victoria (48:38)
So tell everybody where they can find you and what they can expect from the cocoon and where you hang out on social media.

Erin Thomas Wong (48:45)
So I’m at Life Friendly Biz on social. My website is lifefriendlybusiness.com. And the Cocoon is my online membership for women who are adopting a life-friendly approach. So it’s all about getting systems and processes in place to help you run your business in a life-friendly way. And also take that time to reflect on what success means to you and how you want that business to work.

And I’ve got my podcast as well, the Life Friendly Business podcast, but I would love to connect with anyone who’s resonated with our conversation today.

Victoria (49:18)
It’s been brilliant, Erin. I’ve had a lovely time and you’ve held my hand metaphorically through this first dive into the world of podcasting. So thank you so much.

Erin Thomas Wong (49:26)
You’re welcome. First of many podcast episodes.

Victoria (49:29)
Fingers crossed. Thanks, Erin.

Erin Thomas Wong (49:30)
Thank

you.

Victoria (49:36)
I loved this conversation with Erin. She has been encouraging women to put their wellbeing at the center of their businesses for literally years and is an expert in this space. I definitely took away some really valuable tips and tricks to help me reflect on my own boundaries around work and family life. And I will be scheduling in some CEO time over a generous mocha and likely an enormous croissant at my favorite coffee shop very soon.

Victoria (50:02)
Thank you so much for being here. I know your time is precious and I appreciate every single one of you for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast because we want as many moms as possible to find us and join in the conversation.

If you have thoughts, questions, love letters, or even hate mail, please send them my way. I read every single message. For more resources and episode show notes, please visit our website at mummeansbusinesspodcast.com and find us on Instagram at mummeansbusinesspodcast for behind the scenes content and updates. Until next time, I’m wishing you only good things in life and business, and I will speak to you soon.