Episode 20: Dr. Natasha Wallace On Burnout And Maternal Mental Health

Hello and welcome to the Mum Means Business podcast, where we shine a light on inspiring women who have one thing in common. When they’re not managing tantrums, homework, P.E. kits and play dates, they are busting their gut to create something from nothing, to turn their passion into a thriving business and build a better life for themselves and their families. We dig into what motivates devoted mothers to pursue entrepreneurship and how they integrate their work and family life.

I’m Victoria Phipps, your host, and if you’re an ambitious mum in need of some solidarity whilst navigating the messy middle of making your big dream a reality, then stick around. This is for you.

NOTE: This is the transcript from the original recording, rather than the edited episode so timings may vary.

Victoria (00:01)
My guest today is a clinical psychologist with over 20 years experience in the NHS who transitioned to private practice founding Revive Psychological Services after the birth of her second child in 2021. Having personally experienced postnatal depression and burnout, she wanted to help other women who were struggling with the inevitable overwhelm of motherhood. Dr. Natasha Wallace is passionate about showing women that calm,

balance and good mental health are possible, even in the busiest seasons of life. Through her programs, resources and online community, she combines nervous system regulation with practical tools and mindset shifts to support women in moving from survival mode to truly thriving. Her goal is to provide the strategies, guidance and support necessary to help women prioritize their wellbeing and thrive amidst the relentless demands of 21st century life.

I am 100 % certain that I could benefit from some of those tools myself. So I am very keen to hear more. Natasha, welcome to the Mummy’s Business Podcast.

Dr Natasha Wallace (01:03)
Hello, thank you for having me Victoria, it’s really nice to be here. I’m excited.

Victoria (01:08)
Our pleasure. Me

too, me too. So tell me, it sounds like your journey into kind of entrepreneurship was very intertwined with your journey into motherhood. So you’d been in the NHS for 20 years, which is a long time. I still find it terrifying that I can say I’ve been doing anything for 20 years. ⁓ And you decided to take this big leap and bet on yourself and do something different. So what made you do it?

Dr Natasha Wallace (01:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, well, burnout. Burnout is what made me do it. Which is really sad, isn’t it? But I think it is so many people’s story that they get to the point of burnout and then have to consider making changes and what those changes look like. I mean, would it be helpful for me to tell you just a bit about the lead up to that?

Victoria (01:39)
No.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely, because burnout isn’t something that happens overnight. So what did that look like for you?

Dr Natasha Wallace (02:05)
No.

Yeah, I think it, yeah, I’m thinking back as you’re speaking, thinking what did it look like for me? my goodness me, it was years for me in the making. And it really started for me when I was doing my clinical psychology doctorate.

I was always somebody who put everything into my career. I had real perfectionist parts. I really wanted to do well. I had to do everything right. And I guess that was something that…

was okay and manageable using strategies like, I don’t know, I kept on top of my stress by exercising and that helped and that worked at the time, but it’s only now that I realized that that was just putting a bit of a bandage over what was really going on underneath. And then I went into the NHS, I worked for however many years I worked. Again, the…

mean, the NHS is so wonderful if you need it, but the pressures and the demands on staff and the lack of resources sometimes, it just makes, and I’m generalising there, not every service will be like that, but the ones that I worked in unfortunately had those issues, which just puts more pressure on staff. And then I had my first baby in, when did I have him? 2018.

And I unfortunately experienced birth trauma and that led to postnatal depression but that was undiagnosed at the time. Which sounds a bit silly to say I’m a psychologist and I had postnatal depression and I didn’t know that. Yeah.

Victoria (03:58)
I was gonna say, yeah. But that’s so interesting because,

you know, with all the skills and the knowledge that you have, you were not able to see it. And we’re kind of expecting a lot of new moms to be able to identify this without any of those skills and any of that knowledge. So it’s so good of you to share that.

Dr Natasha Wallace (04:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, my goodness.

Yeah, and I think maybe, you know, if it was closer to that time, that period of time, I wouldn’t be able to share this, but because I’m in the place that I am now, I’m so happy to share it, to help other women. ⁓ Because I’m really, I am really passionate about helping other women not get to the place where I got to. ⁓ But I guess at the time,

You know that kind of feeling where you know things don’t feel okay, but everybody tells you, you know, becoming a mum is really hard. You just keep pushing through and you tell yourself, and I had all my perfectionist tendencies, you know, I’ve got to get this right. I’ve got to do it. This is just what it feels like. That’s what I told myself. This is just what it feels like. And I’ve just got to get on with it. And it was only about a year.

Victoria (04:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (05:13)
later when I started to feel better that I could reflect and say that wasn’t okay. How I felt was not okay. And there were so many things. I was tearful. I felt like at the time I hadn’t connected with my son the way people tell you. ⁓

that you do, you know, that wish of love as soon as you hold your child. I had absolutely had the kind of the pull to look after him and keep him safe. But I was thinking, people say that you have this wish and I’ve just not had it. It was like two months later, I still haven’t had it. ⁓ And it wasn’t until maybe five months. And that was after I’d healed from the birth trauma. And that I thought, my goodness.

Yeah, I really love my child and that was…

Victoria (06:08)
yeah that’s

⁓ sorry Natasha

Dr Natasha Wallace (06:13)
That’s okay.

Victoria (06:17)
My phone just started ringing and it comes really loudly in my ear. So it just took me out of the conversation. We’ll cut this out. So that’s really interesting because you’re right. There is this expectation set that hormonally it’s going to be a natural wave of love that you feel for this baby. And I have to say, I didn’t have that either. And

Dr Natasha Wallace (06:19)
Alright.

Don’t worry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (06:45)
I also had a traumatic first birth and I’d lost a lot of blood, I was exhausted and looking back, I was traumatized from it. I don’t think I experienced postnatal depression, but I definitely asked myself that question of why is this right? And they don’t do anything. They’re so dependent on you. You have…

Dr Natasha Wallace (06:47)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm… Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm… Yeah. No. No!

Yeah.

Victoria (07:11)
all of these physical changes in your body, you’re recovering from a trauma physically and mentally, your whole life is thrown upside down and you also have this massive, massive duty to this thing that’s brand new. You’ve never met them before. You don’t know anything about them. They’re not, you know, they don’t even smile at you for six weeks. And I feel the same as you. And I think that’s important to say I had a massive sense of duty and responsibility and to care for this baby, but I didn’t.

Dr Natasha Wallace (07:16)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah.

Victoria (07:41)
I didn’t fall in love with them and I actually think I fall in love with my children more every day because I get to know them better, you know.

Dr Natasha Wallace (07:43)
Yeah.

my goodness. Yeah, and I

totally agree with you with that. And it’s so refreshing to hear the honesty because I think so many women experience similar, but we don’t talk about it. We don’t talk about it. We just, yeah, and go, I’m not connected with a child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (07:51)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You don’t sit around with new moms, know, NCT or whatever it might be and say, I’m not sure if I love my baby. ⁓ do you love your baby? That’s not a conversation

that happened. And I was so lucky with my mom friends, but we definitely weren’t having that conversation. And actually we were just in survival mode and we didn’t even know it. We were just, you know, fueled on caffeine, eating lots of cake and just talking about the practical.

Dr Natasha Wallace (08:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah.

Victoria (08:30)
you

know, how the hell do you do this and how do you get that yellow stain out of this baby grow? And it was all of that, which was important, but it’s not getting really into the nitty gritty of that emotional side.

Dr Natasha Wallace (08:33)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think there was something about, like, if I admit, and I think my husband could see that I was struggling a bit, but I thought if I admit that this is how I feel, then I’m failing as a mum. Like, I’m failing as a mum if I’m not just managing and just coping. And, you know, those sorts of thoughts, they’ve come into my mind.

Victoria (08:58)
Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (09:11)
gosh, on and off over the past seven years for different reasons. You know, which I think a lot of other women experience that at times too. So that’s, I feel really important to talk about as well. You know, and then you have that year off, don’t you? And then you get, you’re like, if you choose to, you’re back into work. And you know, it was a year of very up and down.

you know, not feeling good in myself, just starting to pick up, thrown back into NHS work life. And I went back into a job and a service that was new. I changed jobs to fit around now being a mum. So it wasn’t going to work the services I was working in before because of the hours and the demands and I would stay extra if I needed to because I…

didn’t have anybody at home depending on me, didn’t need to do a pick up. ⁓ I could travel a little bit further because it was about half an hour, 45 minutes away depending on traffic. And I made the decision, even though I love that service, to move because it fit around my family life. And it was honestly the worst decision I’ve ever made for my career.

Victoria (10:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

I didn’t expect to say that, okay.

Okay.

Dr Natasha Wallace (10:38)
Yeah, because

and the reason why absolutely brilliant being closer to home seven minutes away, you know it and Practically it worked. I could pick my child up It wasn’t too far from nursery or from grandparents if depending on where he was But I wasn’t I still had those parts of me that really wanted to do well at work. I wanted to excel in my career. I wanted to to

I had a fear of people thinking I wasn’t capable if I couldn’t do my job well. And I wasn’t able to do my job in a way that felt morally, sometimes ethically right in this service, not because of anything to do with the clients, but because of the systems and the kind of the way that the kind of organization was. And yeah, it was.

Victoria (11:30)
Okay.

Dr Natasha Wallace (11:38)
It was really, really tricky. I was trying to be a psychologist but expected to do roles that didn’t fall under psychology, which I was stretched. Yeah, I was stretched and asked to do things that felt very out of my skills and knowledge. know about physical health in a psychological way, but I don’t know about physical health if somebody’s injured themselves, you know, so.

Victoria (11:47)
Okay, so you were stretched as well, you know, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (12:07)
It was tricky. ⁓ And the parts of me that are like, no, come on, we’re going to make sure we’re going to get this right. Really tried, worked with other colleagues to put together kind of suggestions and job plans and all of this. But it just got to the point where I was walking out of work crying. I was ringing my husband saying, I can’t do this anymore. ⁓

Victoria (12:35)
That’s so hard.

Dr Natasha Wallace (12:36)
It’s so hard because I wasn’t happy at work and that rippled. I wasn’t happy at home. And from somebody who had postnatal depression to then go back into a workplace and that wasn’t supporting, of didn’t feel like it was supporting my wellbeing. It was kind of, yeah, it was like, yeah, just like the cherry on top of the cake.

Victoria (12:42)
Yeah.

Do you,

yeah, do you feel like you were recovered from postnatal depression? Because if you hadn’t identified it specifically and it hadn’t been kind of clinically diagnosed, you’re kind of still, I presume, carrying a lot with you as you go back to work.

Dr Natasha Wallace (13:14)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. I mean, in all honesty, that was to that my son was born in 2018 and I would say two years ago was when I actually feel like I processed the trauma and the experience of that year. So I think what year 2025, so 2023. So from 2018 to 2023, that

Victoria (13:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

Five years.

Dr Natasha Wallace (13:48)
Yeah, yeah. But on the other side of that was, but I’m a psychologist, it’s okay, I know what I do. And I had tools. I had tools that I thought worked. I still exercised, know, still, where I could, took time for myself. A very supportive husband and family who were chipping in with everything that needed to be done. And on the outside, it looked like I had it all together. And then I was fine.

Victoria (14:17)
It sounds like you were, know, deploying these tools was keeping you afloat. You you weren’t opting out and going to bed and telling everyone to leave you alone and you couldn’t do it. You weren’t giving up, but you were just about surviving and keeping the ball rolling. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (14:21)
Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

just about surviving, yeah. And I

think there’s something about that that’s really important, because I would also say that it’s only the past couple of years that I feel like I’ve truly shifted out of survival mode. And I think part of that is because, you know, I survived and then I was like, I know, what might help? Let’s have another baby. So I had another baby.

you know, because I was like, then I’ll be on maternity

Victoria (15:01)
Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (15:03)
leave. to be honest, Victoria, I’ve heard so many women say, really, really am not happy in my job. If I have another baby, I’ll have another year off. And I wanted another baby, so it wasn’t about the baby was not the solution. No, no, no, no, no. But it was like, well, actually, I’m not enjoying work, so maybe this is the right time to do that.

Victoria (15:12)
Yeah.

No, it wasn’t a sticking plaster. Yeah.

Yeah,

I definitely feel like maternity was headspace with my second. I think there’s such a colossal seismic shift when you have your first and you can’t prepare for it, you just can’t. I mean, you can listen to things, read things, do things and of course you can kind of prepare for the labor, there’s things you can do there. But the psychological…

Dr Natasha Wallace (15:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm, yeah.

Victoria (15:55)
impact of becoming a mother for the first time is enormous. And I’m not saying that to freak people out. I’m just saying that because it’s something to be mindful of that. And this is why these conversations are so important because when you become a mum, it changes everything and not necessarily for the worse. doesn’t, you know, it’s when I say it changes everything, it’s just a new chapter and new season in your life. And there is so much joy within it.

Dr Natasha Wallace (15:59)
my goodness. Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (16:25)
if you can find it, but you have to be vigilant about your mental health. And this is where what you do now comes into it. You have to watch your mind and listen to the stories you’re telling yourself and listen to, you know, your body and how you feel, because it’s hard and it’s so hard and you kind of, you’re in a haze and you don’t really appreciate that until you’re on the other side of it in a lot of cases, like you’ve said.

Dr Natasha Wallace (16:29)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (16:52)
and

the other side of it could be five years time. But definitely after my first, felt very, I wouldn’t say confused, but I was in that phase of kind of, of overwhelm and shifting and trying to find a new identity in a new direction. And I did feel like another baby, because I wanted one anyway. I kind of just wanted to get it done. And that sounds awful, but I…

Dr Natasha Wallace (16:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah absolutely I feel this I felt

the same yeah

Victoria (17:18)
Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, I just

wanted, I was like, well, if I’m in this, let’s just be in this and let’s just, you know, have all the nappies and have all the sleeplessness and let’s just do it. I did get, I was very fortunate to have two full years at home with my babies. And I do feel like the second time round, you know, you don’t have the overwhelm of everything is new. So you,

you can kind of appreciate it in a different way. I don’t know if you felt like that and it, you know, it’s slightly different.

Dr Natasha Wallace (17:48)
Yeah.

Yeah and I absolutely I’m so pleased that that is the experience that you had and that was the experience I was hoping to have but it wasn’t the experience I had because no no no don’t apologize because that’s what I wanted and I planned I planned for that my son was you know going to go into nursery for a little bit and go with the grandparents so I had some time with

Victoria (18:02)
Yeah, okay. Okay, I’m sorry. Go on.

Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (18:21)
my daughter, was having an elective c-section by choice because of my first experience. I was like, I am not having postnatal depression again. I am not having that experience again. And then she was born and three weeks later COVID lockdown hit. And yeah, so that’s why I didn’t have the same experience. And then I was at home with a newborn and a…

Victoria (18:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (18:48)
just turned two year old because my children are born a day apart. Yeah, it’s a busy, busy week. So yeah, so everything that I had tried to, I can see now, take control over what I thought I could because, know, as well as I do, Victoria, when it comes to babies and children, they are the ones in control. They are gonna tell you.

Victoria (18:52)
my gosh, that’s busy birthday, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Natasha Wallace (19:14)
when they’re coming, when they’re crying, when they need to sleep,

they’re hungry. So I tried to take control over the things I thought I could. ⁓ But then COVID lockdown hit and so did postnatal depression again. that was, yeah. yeah. And I can speak about it now. But to be honest, was, and that one, there was no…

Victoria (19:31)
I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.

Dr Natasha Wallace (19:43)
question about how I felt during that year, which was so hard. I can look back at it now. I’ve done a lot of work on it in my own therapy, so I’m okay talking about it. And I think it’s important because I think a lot of women experience, well, not, you know, everybody experiences periods of feeling low or sadness, but a lot of women that I’ve worked with.

have not really enjoyed that first year and I think it’s really important to talk about that that is sometimes people’s reality. But then on the other hand I have friends and family members who have just thrived in that first year so it’s just so different for everybody.

Victoria (20:18)
Yeah, definitely.

And it’s

exactly, and it’s luck. It’s there’s nothing wrong with you. That’s the really important thing to say. Yeah, it’s just one of those things.

Dr Natasha Wallace (20:31)
there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Yeah. And I think that is

absolutely. And I spend a lot of time with women who come to me who say, you know, there’s something wrong with me and I need to fix it. And I think there isn’t, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. The way you feel is, you know, you feel that way because of what is externally been going on. And then that’s reflected internally in how you feel.

And that’s really hard as a new mum, like you say, with the hormones, with the changes, the shifts in identity, trying to figure out who you are now, not as just a mum of one, but a mum of two, but also a mum of two who wants to have a career, but also wants to have a husband and a relationship and a family and wants to be their own person. All at the same time. Yeah, it’s a lot.

Victoria (21:26)
It’s a lot, yeah, that’s an awful

lot. And I think as well, if you have always thought of yourself as a mum-to-be, you know, not in the sort of sense that you’re, you know, buying nappies at age 18, but that you had that image of yourself in your mind, that’s what one day you wanted, and you had an idea of the sort of mum you were going to be, and you could go through a really quite pleasant, enjoyable pregnancy.

Dr Natasha Wallace (21:41)
You

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (21:56)
and have your baby and then suddenly be hit by a wave of sadness. And that must be absolutely devastating because you feel on one hand that you’ve got everything that you ever dreamed of and then, and what’s wrong with you? Why aren’t you happy? And that question in itself, and of course there are all the hormones at play too. It’s, it’s.

Dr Natasha Wallace (22:00)
Yeah

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (22:22)
really, really difficult, I imagine, to grapple with and you will blame yourself naturally. And also if you’re isolated, like you were in that second matressence, you know, you’ve got COVID, is it really raining at your house? Yeah, I can hear it. Yeah. It’s all right, we’ll carry on. I was like, what is that noise? It’s a monsoon. No, it’s fine, we’ll carry on.

Dr Natasha Wallace (22:23)
Yeah.

yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

it is really raining can you hear that quite loudly? ⁓ no it’s just stopped okay

Will your editor

be able to take that out?

Victoria (22:51)
I don’t know.

Dr Natasha Wallace (22:52)
It’s literally just started.

Sorry, yeah it was. Yeah. Okay.

Victoria (22:58)
Don’t worry, it just was very sudden and I was like, what’s going on? It’s like, you’ve got a shaker under your desk. Don’t worry, we will carry on

and they’ll have to figure it out. Yeah, particularly if it’s your, like you said with your second, you know, you’re very isolated because it’s COVID. So you’re having all of these feelings and you don’t really feel like you have a lot of people to reach out to and confide in.

Dr Natasha Wallace (23:21)
Yes.

Victoria (23:23)
and share those problems. again, you have so much time in your own mind, you’re on maternity, you’re spending long days by yourself with your baby. There’s a lot of space to be tormenting yourself with your thoughts.

Dr Natasha Wallace (23:26)
Yeah. ⁓ yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. And there were times I used to think, because my husband could still go out to work. And there times I think, don’t leave me in this house on my own. You know, and I was able to verbalize that to him. And as soon as he understood what was happening, you know, things changed and he stayed in the house more and helped out. even just having that adult company sometimes, you know, so.

Victoria (23:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (24:03)
Yeah, mean, just really hard periods of life, but I don’t think I would be where I am or what I’m doing without that lead-up, to be honest. So there is something about looking back at that and appreciating how difficult it was and how it was, they weren’t fun times of my life, but actually there’s something about having gratitude that I am able to do what I do now.

because that was a part of the journey.

Victoria (24:37)
Yeah, and you’re uniquely placed to have empathy now with your clients and you can relate to them so honestly. And, you know, within the realms of what’s ethical in your practice, you can share some of what you’ve been through to make them feel again that they’re not alone because that is, it’s one of the most painful things I think to feel like whatever it is that you’re suffering, you’re the only one.

Dr Natasha Wallace (24:42)
yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (25:06)
So how

did you make that decision to transition from NHS to your own practice?

Dr Natasha Wallace (25:10)
NHS, yeah. Yeah.

Well, I did go back to work in the NHS, the same service, and I think I was slightly hopeful that things, because there was, had maternity cover and they were still trying to negotiate and make changes. And I was like, come on, please say that something has changed for the psychologist role, but it unfortunately didn’t. And as soon as I went back and I think,

I think a part of me was already a little bit traumatised by my experience before I went on maternity leave. So it was only about three months in and I said I can’t do this because my wellbeing is being significantly impacted by this job.

And that was, yeah, that was really hard. And also quite scary, because I was like, I’m going to hand my notice in, because I cannot, my notice period is three months. I can’t see myself being in this role for longer than three months. Three months still feels too long. So I just chose to hand my notice in. Very supportive husband, so I’m very lucky in that respect. And I was like…

What do do now? You know, I, yeah, was like, do I do now? But what I realized was I’d actually at that point I was, I was on the verge of burnout already. So when I handed my notice in, it was, I could feel it viscerally in my body that I was just exhausted. And then I,

Victoria (26:29)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (26:56)
I’d always wanted to, you know, be my own boss and work for myself and I thought, you know what, now is the chance. I’ve got three months to set things up. But I know when I reflect back, I know what I’m like. When I choose to do something, I throw myself in 100%, more than 100%. You know, I’m working all the hours to set it up.

still doing all my parenting duties, still trying to make sure the washing is done, still, you know, making sure this food shop is done, but also spending all the spare time I had to set up my business. Before the three months came to an end.

Victoria (27:46)
I mean that’s a hard deadline, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (27:47)
Oh, it’s a hard deadline. Yeah. But I was like, it is a deadline though. That is the deadline that I had. And I thought I can’t,

I was very lucky in the sense that financially, if there was a little bit of wiggle room there, we would have been fine. But I was like, I need to, for me, because this is what I want and I want something that is, is mine. And I can say I built myself. I was like, I need to get this right. The perfectionist parts again, I need to get this right.

Victoria (28:11)
Yeah.

Whatever right means, I need to do that.

Dr Natasha Wallace (28:18)
Yeah,

but whatever that is and I didn’t know because this was a whole new world to me. So yeah, so that was back in 20. I think I’ve been, I think that was, so I had her in 2020, so that was 2021 when I set that up.

Victoria (28:23)
Yeah, yeah.

So I

think what is really impressive is that you gave yourself permission to make the decision to leave your job without yet having your plan B. Because so many of us will keep going because we don’t know what else to do. And we ignore all the signals.

Dr Natasha Wallace (28:47)
Mmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Victoria (29:04)
from that our body is telling us that things aren’t right. And we don’t ever quite get around to that plan B. We don’t figure it out. And suddenly, know, 10 years could pass. And in that time, I always, mean, I am not a medical person by any stretch of the imagination, but we have a lot of autoimmune disease in our family. And I am really interested in this idea that in the end, your body will manifest, your body will…

Dr Natasha Wallace (29:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (29:34)
will speak up where you haven’t taken action and something will happen. know, your health will suffer in one way or another if you keep going when actually everything in the fiber of your being feels ill at ease in whatever it is that you’re doing. And so I think that that is really important that you did that first and you, know, and especially as a perfectionist, because there must have been an element of you that felt like, you know, without

Dr Natasha Wallace (29:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (30:03)
that you might have had an idea about what you might do, but there’s nothing set up yet and you’re leaving this career that you’ve built for all this time. And are you leaving people in the lurch or are you giving up in some way? Are you not up to the job? All of those things that I know I would be telling myself because ⁓ I’m just the same, but yet you decided to put yourself first and I think that that’s really plaudible.

Dr Natasha Wallace (30:10)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. well, thank you. It was, it wasn’t, it felt like a fairly easy decision to hand the notice in because I could not go on anymore. It was my health or…

you know, it was do that or stuff or my health would suffer. And it’s interesting when you said, cause I hadn’t mentioned this, but when you said about your body, we’ll show you, I developed an autoimmune condition, a skin one. When I was, when it, when I had my second child in that period and the doctor said it was the stress that had triggered that. And I’ve had alopecia and my hair started to…

Victoria (30:56)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (31:13)
So already I’m like, my body is falling apart, my mental health doesn’t feel good. And interestingly, once I had left, I actually came off my medication for my autoimmune disorder and managed it by nutrition and more holistic approaches. I’ve never been on medication for it since.

Victoria (31:17)
Yeah.

There you

go.

Dr Natasha Wallace (31:43)
Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I did feel that, you know, the burnout for me really did hit kind of six months into my business because I was working as many hours as possible. But the difference was I was happier. But my body was physically not. If that makes any sense.

Victoria (32:07)
Okay, yeah.

It’s so

hard. Yeah, no, no, it totally does. It’s so hard. So mentally you’re aligned in what you’re doing, you know, what you’re doing with your day to day and in your direction of travel feels good to you. Whereas before you felt overwhelmed and you felt like you were perhaps put in a position which was outside of your comfort zone in terms of where your skill was. ⁓ And there were demands being placed on you which you didn’t feel comfortable with. Whereas now you’ve got this project.

Dr Natasha Wallace (32:13)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I’m like, this is great.

Victoria (32:41)
you’re doing your thing, yeah. And actually

you’re happy to work all those hours because you’re excited. And then it’s that mind-body connection. And actually, you your mind is good, but your body is exhausted.

Dr Natasha Wallace (32:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, well, fairly good, but yeah, it was exhausted.

But I also think I hadn’t given my body a chance to rest, to reset, heal after the experiences of postnatal depression. So I don’t think it didn’t surprise me that I got to that point on reflection because I was go, go, go, go, go, go, go. We’re just getting through this, getting through this, getting through this. And then it was like, And…

Yeah, that was also a very, very tough time, but it just gave me the, what’s the word I’m looking for, like the push to actually help myself heal properly, to look into that, to, ⁓ you know, I was using all the, what you might call typical stress management strategies that, you know, we talked a little bit about earlier, but again, they were just putting a bit of a bandage over the top.

and surviving, just helping me get through, get through, get through. And what happened was it got to the point where I really needed the deeper kind of ⁓ healing in my body, in my nervous system, because it had just crashed. ⁓ But it couldn’t crash completely because I’m a mum and you still had to get on with mum things. So even though I got to that point, you still can’t fully rest.

Victoria (34:16)
Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (34:24)
because you have other responsibilities.

Victoria (34:27)
And those responsibilities are your children. And there’s something in just in our making as mothers that we cannot abandon them. So we abandon ourselves first. And again, you’re right. So what did that healing look like? Cause you don’t have much time to play with here and the business still needs to happen in some form and your children still have all the same demands. What did it look like? How did you?

Dr Natasha Wallace (34:30)
Yeah.

Yes.

No, you don’t have much time.

Yeah.

Victoria (34:56)
How did you go about starting to heal from all of that trauma?

Dr Natasha Wallace (34:59)
Yeah.

I guess that I did more of a deep dive. I guess when we’re trained as psychologists in our training, we do talk about the body. We do kind of explore that, but it’s not on as deep a level as I now see in hindsight that we maybe need for, you know, during the training or for when you get to that point of real kind of…

burnout. And I took a deeper dive into that. I went back to the research, I kind of realigned, I was like, right, let me, I need to do something that means that I’m not going to continue in this cycle of I’m okay and I crash and I’m okay and then I crash and I’m okay and then I crash. Because that’s how it felt. It felt like that’s the cycle that I was getting myself into. that’s when I really started to focus on

more about what’s happening in my nervous system, more about helping my body see that I am safe in these situations, my son having a meltdown is not a danger or a threat, whereas my body thought it was because it was so dysregulated and functioning on survival mode that anything that happened triggered this response of stress and panic and…

you know, I would snap or I would be like, I can’t deal with this and, and actually helping it to see that it is, it is safe in these situations, that there is no threat to me if I can’t reply to that referral inquiry within two minutes, that it’s okay, that if I choose to put a boundary in and say, I’m sorry, I can’t see you at 7.30 in the morning,

Victoria (36:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (36:55)
I can see you at, you these are my working hours, then that is okay.

So that was really hard. Sorry Victoria, I’m just gonna cough. So sorry.

Victoria (37:02)
and

It’s alright, have a drink.

Take your time, take your time, have a drink.

Dr Natasha Wallace (37:18)
so sorry.

Victoria (37:20)
It’s fine, don’t worry. Don’t worry.

Dr Natasha Wallace (37:26)
You know when you gotta… Just two seconds. ⁓ my goodness.

Victoria (37:27)
If you want to go out of the room and go and just cough your guts out, go and do that. It’s fine. It’s fine.

It’s all right. Don’t worry.

I’m coughing.

Dr Natasha Wallace (38:03)
Okay.

I’m back. ⁓ Yeah, I think we’re good. Sorry about that.

Victoria (38:07)
Are you okay? ⁓

Are you sure? Are you okay? I think I’ve got

like, sympathy cough.

Dr Natasha Wallace (38:19)
have you? You know when

it just feels like something’s stuck all of a sudden and then you’re like gosh.

Victoria (38:24)
Yeah,

yeah, and there’s nothing you can do except leave the room. And it’s always, yeah, exactly, it’s always, you know, in a lecture or a funeral or the worst times or on a podcast. Yeah, exactly. It’s all right. Are you good?

Dr Natasha Wallace (38:27)
cough yeah

my goodness, or on a podcast.

So sorry. Okay.

We’re

We’re good.

Victoria (38:44)
Okay, I’ll start with a new question around the same thing. So did you feel like this nervous system dysregulation that you’re talking about was really starting to impact the way that you parent?

Dr Natasha Wallace (39:02)
absolutely. Sorry Victoria, it’s gonna go again.

Victoria (39:07)
It’s alright, just go. It’s fine, if you need to just go, just go. Don’t worry.

Dr Natasha Wallace (39:11)
Yeah

Okay, now I can talk. Now I can talk without coughing. my goodness.

Victoria (40:08)
Are you sure

you’re good? It’s all right, I just got an email from my editor. I’ll say hi. Hi, James. That he’s just finished the first edit. So I’ve just been reading that. So you’re all good, you’re all good. It’s absolutely fine. No, no, no, it’s awful. It’s horrible. So don’t worry about it at all. It can all come out. So I will ask that question again. So with all this nervous system dysregulation that you were talking about,

Dr Natasha Wallace (40:10)
that you’re doing.

hassy. sorry about that. I was like, I can’t even speak without it starting. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yes.

Victoria (40:38)
Do you feel that that was starting to impact the way that you parented?

Dr Natasha Wallace (40:42)
Oh, absolutely, 100%. And I think that for me was the kind of the realization that something needed to change.

I had this, you know, had this vision of me being this really calm, chilled parent, right? I’m not going to be the one who shouts or, you know, tells them off, know. You know, I worked in children’s services for years. I was like, you know, I think I get what I should be doing. And I was doing the opposite. I was finding myself becoming, having less tolerance and becoming more snappy.

⁓ I realised that I was quite disconnected in the sense that, you know, I’d always be thinking, I just need to quickly check my emails and like my child would be there and they’d just be seeing me on my laptop or quickly on my phone and it was a case of at the time like, this is urgent, I know you’re safe, this is urgent, which is so the wrong way it felt for me to be doing things.

You know, I didn’t feel, yeah, I just felt that in times that felt important, I was more disconnected from, I wasn’t connecting, I was connected with my children, but you they might come up to me and want to play and I’d be like, I’ve just got to do this first and then I’ll play with you. Yeah, and that’s just not, then you never quite get around to playing. Yeah. I say, yeah.

Victoria (42:11)
and then you never quite get round to playing.

Yeah, I’ve definitely been there. And there’s a lot of mum guilt

that comes with that.

Dr Natasha Wallace (42:20)
so much mum guilt, but I feel like there’s mum guilt through, from the minute that you find out you’re pregnant, I think I’ve experienced mum guilt in some way, shape or form. But that’s often, mum guilt is often, it often shows up because there is a deeper fear under that. So the deeper fear being, I’m a bad mum.

Victoria (42:30)
Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (42:49)
So mum guilt comes in and goes well, if I make you feel guilty maybe you’ll do something differently to stop you being a bad mum. And you know that’s part of the dysregulation.

Victoria (43:00)
It’s interesting.

Yeah, so obviously with all of your knowledge, you’re kind of identifying that as a symptom of something rather than just a cultural trait that is inevitable, you know, that it’s something that we need to actually look at quite closely.

Dr Natasha Wallace (43:06)
Bye.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah,

yeah. And I think that’s one of the things, if I can say anything about mum guilt that might help your listeners, is to take a step back and think about what the mum guilt is actually about. Is it guilty because you…

stayed at, you had to stay at work and you missed pick up, somebody else had to pick them up, or what is underneath that? What does it, what does staying at work and not picking your child up bring up for you? You know, and a lot of the time society tells us these things though, don’t they? You should be able to work and do all the things that you need to do as a mum. Yes.

Victoria (43:58)
Yeah, which is nonsense. And I’m getting increasingly cross about this, not only as a

mum, but also I think having these conversations with other mums who are doing all sorts of different things. There is so much commonality in these feelings that it is making me mildly and perhaps one day absolutely furious because we can’t do all of these things. But what I think is so interesting about what you just said there is that we all experience mum guilt.

Dr Natasha Wallace (44:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Relax.

Mm-hmm.

Victoria (44:27)
And society tells us that that’s normal. Our parents, our mothers will tell us that’s normal and that’s welcome to motherhood. You you’re gonna always have that. But actually there’s a potential in the way you’re describing it to reframe it as something really, really helpful because we can look at it. And if we have a moment to sort of step back and analyze it, it’s telling us something about the way that we as individuals are living our lives. And…

Dr Natasha Wallace (44:41)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (44:55)
that gives us opportunity and hope for change if we allow it a little bit of space. Whereas if we write it off as just inevitable, we miss out on that opportunity.

Dr Natasha Wallace (44:58)
Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely. And mum guilt can consume. It can consume you. And taking a step back and looking at it for what it is, is the first step because you’re separating yourself from it. Because mum guilt doesn’t define you. It doesn’t define who you are as a mum. There’s a reason that it’s there. And exploring and understanding the reason means that you can actually put steps into place to make change.

I think it’s really hard because I think we’re always, you people will say, can I make the mumgelt go away? And I think probably, it probably will never fully go away because, ⁓

know, life changes, things happen. There might be times where you don’t feel mum guilt for a while because you’ve done some really great work around what it actually means for you, but then something might change in your life and it pops back in. But it’s recognising that and understanding mum guilt for what it is and the message it’s trying to tell you. There’s a reason it comes in and comes into your life.

Victoria (46:12)
Yeah, and that’s quite a revolutionary way of thinking about it that I’d never considered that you could actually harness it as a sort of friend. ⁓ Like this is some serious reframing that you need to do, but you could actually say, okay, hi, mom guilt. You know, for me, it’s often on the really busy days, you know, where you’ve, know, I have Fridays off historically with my kids and I will until my youngest goes to school, which is brilliant. You know, so lucky to be able to do that.

Dr Natasha Wallace (46:18)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Victoria (46:42)
but it’s those days where I had both of them and I also have a lot to do and I take them around on lots of errands, which, know, to a certain extent, I think children should be taken on errands. You know, you can’t just sit and play with them all day because that’s just not real life all the time. So that’s fine, but then maybe I come back and I’ve got some work to do and I’m trying to email or I’m trying to like, I don’t know, whatever it might be and, or edit some photos, whatever it might be and

Dr Natasha Wallace (46:45)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (47:11)
they want me and I’m pushing them away, which is exactly what you were talking about earlier. And it’s, that is for me, the time when mom guilt always pops up. Yeah. And everyone will probably find if they reflect on the trend of when it most likely pops into their mind, there might be a pattern and then you can sort of break that down, unpick it to decipher what it is. And I suppose what would you recommend then? So,

Dr Natasha Wallace (47:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

What creeps saying? Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Victoria (47:41)
In terms of tools, once you’ve identified it, it’s that, then what are the kind of tools and strategies that people can use to improve the way they’re doing things so that mum guilt doesn’t just keep bashing them around the head?

Dr Natasha Wallace (47:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah and I think it’s

about taking away the power of it.

So, and I think you’re absolutely right there about it being like a signal, right? That there is something. I mean, there’s a few things that we can do. I think the first one is that the root of all of this is that our nervous system sees something as a threat. And when I say that, what I mean is the threat that comes in is the fear or the thoughts that you’re a bad mum. Because the threat is, when we talk about threat for our bodies and our brains, it’s not necessarily always physical threat.

danger it’s emotional or psychological and threat or danger too and you may have heard people say things like and your brain doesn’t know the difference between being chased by a bear and you know your child having a meltdown that it reacts in exactly the same way and that’s what’s happening with mum guilt is that your brain and your nervous system are seeing something has happened it triggers that as it’s a threat so a threat to you I’m a bad

mum, that’s a threat because that brings around all sorts for you, so then mum guilt comes in. So I guess there are a few things that you can do. So for example, if you can identify that it’s about what we just talked about, I haven’t got time, know, choosing work over children, say, which sometimes we have to. Let’s be honest, sometimes…

Victoria (49:03)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (49:24)
small pieces of work, things that we need to do, do have deadlines and we have to get them done. And that’s just part of life. But then… Yeah.

Victoria (49:33)
but I feel like when that happened, that

wouldn’t bring the mum guilt. So if it was that, I knew, say I was pitching to do a TED Talk or something, and I just got the email saying, if you don’t answer in 10 minutes, you’re not gonna be able to do it. I wouldn’t feel any mum guilt about that. So that’s interesting.

Dr Natasha Wallace (49:37)
Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, then that wouldn’t. Yeah, yeah.

That is interesting. But I guess that’s about what… ⁓

what matters to you in your work career and that does, you know, so that’s something that you see as having value and meaning to take that 10 minutes away from your child saying, I want to play with you, I want to play with you and that’s okay too. But there is something about…

Because a lot of mum guilt is about, ⁓ or that I’ve heard, is that fear of being a bad mum or, you know, they’re going to only see me working and they’re going to remember me as this mum who just snaps all the time. you know, so I think there is something about when you can recognise that. It’s what small things can you put into your day that help reduce it. And I really mean small things. I don’t mean go and, you know, because you had to work and your child wanted to play with you, that you decide to go and buy them.

a 50 pound toy in the shop because you feel so guilty. I mean things like make the moments you have with them and the connect the times that you can connect with them matter and if we think about connection as one because often that’s a huge time that mum guilt might come in for people is that children

children don’t remember, well they do remember but when you come to ask them what they liked the most and what was important for them when they’re a bit older, they’re not going to say, oh that time that mum bought me that really sparkly pen and then we went on this elaborate holiday. You know, they say remember, you know what I loved about today, my daughter said this to me the other day. She said,

What I really liked about yesterday was remember when you laughed and then I laughed and we laughed together? It is, and I was just like, I mean I melted inside, but that was a perfect example of what I tried to help the women that I work with see that it isn’t.

Victoria (51:42)
my god, that’s so gorgeous. ⁓ bless her. Yeah, of course, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (51:56)
The small moments of connection, genuine connection, are what matters to your children. So if you can’t play with them in that moment, that’s okay. Let them know, mummy has to do this in 10 minutes, why don’t you go and do X, Y, Z in 10 minutes we will play together. Or making sure that on an evening if you all have dinner together, screens are away, telephones are away, there’s no TV on, and you just spend that time chatting about their day.

or you pick them up from wherever they’ve been and you have small moments of connection in the car whether that’s a conversation or sometimes the best sort of connection is the connection that’s very regulating for you both. So often we will do like a car sing-along or you know in our house we have a Friday morning dance party and we put a song on and we…

Victoria (52:47)
Yeah.

my god, you do the same

things as me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (52:54)
Yeah, so, but that’s connection, right? That’s the genuine

connection. the…

And when you can build that into your day, so it’s not an effort, it is just what you do, you you commit to doing bedtime story and phone is nowhere to be seen, laptop’s nowhere to be seen. You know, that is what matters and those moments matter more than, and if your child knows that they feel seen and heard and valued and loved in those moments, then it’s okay, it will be okay for them.

you to have to prioritize other things sometimes. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (53:34)
Yeah, you feel like there’s an, no, it absolutely does. And do you feel like

there’s an element of filling a child’s cup on this? Because I often find, and it’s anecdotal, and it’s only just occurred to me now you’re talking, if we have had, say, a weekend that we’ve all felt really, really connected, and we’ve had all of those quality interactions, and there hasn’t been much screen time.

Dr Natasha Wallace (53:39)
Hmm

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (53:59)
and we’ve had lots of fun and we’ve looked them in the eye, you know, that they’re cut on Monday as they go into their week and we go to work. They’re more resilient and they’re sort of, less easily troubled by anything that goes on at school or nursery or whatever it might be. Whereas if we have a frantic weekend where we’re disconnected, maybe physically, like someone’s got to work or someone’s got to do X, Y, Z, then going into that next week.

Dr Natasha Wallace (54:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (54:30)
feels, you know, they’ll want more cuddles and just you can see. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (54:32)
Yeah.

They’re going into it a bit frantic, right? Yeah, yeah. And that

is the regulation. That’s your nervous system is regulating because what you’ve described there in that weekend is that you’ve had co-regulation for a full weekend. So you’ve regulated together. Very, very often children ⁓ rely on adults to help them regulate up until a certain age. And, but what is really beautiful are those moments where actually you’ll help you regulate each other.

And so you go into the week already regulated and feeling calm and feeling grounded, not being a bit dysregulated and having the franticness of the weekend spill into your week. And then they need more from you, right? Because they’re a bit dysregulated, so they need the cuddles. They need more from you. They need more of your time. Yeah.

Victoria (55:03)
Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, and you

can see the tantrums might become more frequent. You know, they are just on the edge. And then you’re on the edge as well, you know. And it just all feels, ugh, just not great.

Dr Natasha Wallace (55:32)
Yes, yeah. They are on the edge. Yeah, yeah. And that’s, yeah.

And that’s your nervous systems responding to each other. Because if they’re on edge, your nervous system goes, uh-oh, threat.

they’re on edge, what does that mean for me when I’m already feeling like everything is full? And then that kind, your nervous system goes, okay, stress, anxiety. And then they feed off that and they are like, ⁓ okay, mum’s not feeling okay today. And you see, and you could kind of.

everything can escalate together yeah yeah whereas if if you feel quite regulated and they are dysregulated then their nervous system goes ⁓ mum’s mum’s regulated to do like it’s safe and then they go huh does that make sense what I’m saying so it yeah

Victoria (56:09)
It just builds, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely makes sense. No, completely makes sense. It’s

all about everybody feeling, it’s that safety element, isn’t it? Feeling secure and just calm and able to relax because it’s a tension element, you know, and you’re right. I definitely can recall periods of time where I feel like it’s just building. And so, in terms of, I’m gonna go back a little bit to your,

Dr Natasha Wallace (56:32)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (56:53)
your experience with postnatal depression. And I’m gonna, obviously that’s a very particular and common time of life to have depression. It’s all must be linked into what happens to your body in childbirth and that whole kind of matressence, hormonal fluctuation is all, I presume, all sort of tied in together. But in terms of identifying what is depression and what is a bad.

Dr Natasha Wallace (56:55)
Okay, yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Victoria (57:22)
day, you know, we can kind of, presume, apply the same tactics at any stage of our motherhood journey. How would you advise women who have perhaps feeling low to best identify what is it? You know, I’m not saying that they should diagnose themselves, but what are the clues that can lead people to think, okay, there’s maybe there’s more than a bad day.

Dr Natasha Wallace (57:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think there is something really key you said there, the bad day, because generally a bad day doesn’t last, you know, weeks. Generally a bad day is a bad day and then you can see moments of joy and have moments of pleasure, even if it feels hard.

But I think when you’re experiencing postnatal depression, the joy and the pleasure is hardly there if they’re at all.

the times of feeling well and feeling good aren’t really there at all. I know I had no motivation to do anything. I did do things. I made myself get out of the house, but there were definitely days, maybe weeks, where I was just in the house most of the day. So there is something about, absolutely we have bad days sometimes, especially when there’s the hormones and there’s a newborn. ⁓

And that is okay. And actually what your body’s telling you it needs at that time is to rest. But if that bad day continues and continues and continues and you’re finding yourself socially isolated from people, disconnected from people, disconnected maybe feeling that from your, ⁓ disconnected from your child, disconnected in your relationships. ⁓

you know that is all something to be aware of and yes we have that period and I wish they didn’t call it the 10th what do they call the baby blues and they say it lasts like 10 days because I was going it’s like three months and I still feel like this what is this baby blues what is this ⁓ but I would advise that

Victoria (59:20)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, yeah.

Dr Natasha Wallace (59:32)
Any sign that this might be or any kind of gut feeling that this is something that is not, you know, not okay to go and speak to somebody. Just have the conversation. ⁓

I think GPs are becoming more aware of that. yeah. GPs or even, you know, you can have a few sessions with a therapist. Even one session with a therapist might be helpful. Or even just speaking to a friend or a family member. Letting them know how you feel. And that can be hard. Yeah, yeah.

Victoria (59:49)
and that would presumably be GPs. Yeah.

Yeah, and it can be so hard. Yes, this is it again, because there

must be, presume, I presume there’s a lot of shame that comes with that for a lot of mothers, because again, it comes back to what we saying earlier, you know, I’m supposed to be happy right now. And so there’s something wrong with me. And it can be really hard, I imagine, to break out of that and to take that courageous action to talk about it.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:00:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (1:00:38)
I’m gonna let the monsoon pass because it’s really loud. And you’re coughing. Are you going to cough?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:00:46)
⁓ my goodness!

Victoria (1:01:10)
got to go and pick up Alice in seven minutes.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:01:18)
you.

Victoria (1:01:21)
Are you okay?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:01:23)
Sorry Victoria, your editor’s gonna be like, what was this? It just… ⁓

Victoria (1:01:24)
It’s fine, don’t worry.

This one will test him, but it’s all

really like, it’s just cutting, isn’t it? It’s fine. It’s fine.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:01:36)
Well that’s why I paused when

you said I could feel it coming and I was like don’t answer because it would be good just to cut it there.

Victoria (1:01:41)
Well, I

saw you and I thought I’m gonna finish my sentence, because that’s just my mic, so it’s fine.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:01:45)
Yeah, and then I’m just not gonna say anything.

You see my face going, yeah, okay.

Victoria (1:01:49)
Where do you live? Where

is this rain?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:01:53)
In Newcastle. I’m in Newcastle, yeah. I’m in 10.

Victoria (1:01:55)
Okay.

Yeah, I’ve got cloud, but not the monsoons.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:02:03)
I don’t know what’s going on. I think it’s maybe because we’ve had a cold and we’ve been talking for a while. So I think my… Yeah, my throat is just like…

Victoria (1:02:07)
Yeah, it’s using your voice. Yeah, yeah. What I’ll do is I will try

and pivot to the last question. Also I have to leave and get my daughter from school. There is also all the things. So what did I say before?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:02:15)
Okay.

Well yes, there is also that!

You were saying just about

it being hard, kind of, you know, speaking to people about it. Right. We’re good.

Victoria (1:02:35)
Yeah, I’ll…

on that then.

What advice would you give to somebody who is feeling that shame and is reluctant to go and talk to somebody?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:02:47)
I think there is something about… I mean the shame is also there for a reason, right? That’s a dysregulated nervous system. shame is a multitude of feelings, emotions and fears we might have. Bad mum, failing, can’t cope. And then we have, you know, low mood and depression is often the symptoms of that. Does that make sense? So that, yeah.

Victoria (1:02:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so in

that sense then, can you kind of, with that knowledge, you can separate yourself from it again and think, okay, well, that’s my shame telling me not to call the GP. So if I separate myself from that shame, you might feel a little bit more comfortable about picking up the phone. I think that’s really, really, go on.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:03:18)
Yes, you can separate yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I’m just I

was just gonna say listen

Victoria (1:03:38)
Bless you.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:03:41)
⁓ my gosh, this is terrible.

Victoria (1:03:43)
It’s alright, don’t worry.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:03:49)
you

Victoria (1:03:50)
This is like an apocalyptic podcast. The rain is insane in my ears.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:03:53)
On this rain you’re not going

to be able to hear anything. But yeah, I was just going to say that it feels shameful but there’s nothing to be ashamed of. And actually, more women feel this way than maybe you realise. But we just don’t talk about it enough. And I think that’s the bottom line, we don’t talk about it enough.

Victoria (1:04:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s

exactly. And the more that we talk about it, the more it normalizes, the more it normalizes those conversations because as much as we are obviously far more open than perhaps we would have been 10, 20, 30 years ago, there’s still a lot of shame around some of those feelings. And I think…

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:04:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria (1:04:38)
We’re not helping each other as women by keeping that to ourselves. But so often, as you said, we have to let these things go through their natural cycle and you’re able to speak about it so openly and honestly, and I really appreciate that now that you’ve come out of the other side of it. But even with all of your knowledge and all of your experience, knowing that that happened to you and that you suffered with it for such a long time.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:04:41)
No. No. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria (1:05:08)
I think will help other women to just give themselves a break and to know that the sooner you ask for help, the sooner you might be able to start to see light at the end of the tunnel. And I think it’s so, there’s something kind of beautiful about the fact that you had such a hard time and I’m so sorry that you had all those experiences. And just to think, I mean, we’ve only known each other for 55 minutes, but just to kind of imagine you.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:05:21)
Yeah.

Victoria (1:05:36)
In those early days with your children, not able to experience joy with them is so heartbreaking. And now you have this business where you help other women to find that joy. And there’s something really beautiful about that full circle. So with all of that experience, looking back now, how old are your children?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:05:59)
There.

It’s like I can’t speak anymore.

Victoria (1:06:07)
That’s the last question. That’s the last one. It’s all right. You can go and lie down. Well, you probably can’t. You’ve got to your kids.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:06:08)
I know, I’m gonna get there. Come on boys. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I’ll have to go get- right. Come on, how old are my children? I can answer that question. They are five and seven now. Five and seven years old, yeah.

Victoria (1:06:25)
Okay,

so take yourself back to seven, eight years old, which is how old your son is now. What would you tell yourself looking back?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:06:35)
Mm.

I would tell myself I am stronger than I think I am and that even though it might be a hard journey you do get to a point where you have so much joy you have so much fulfillment and so much purpose and pleasure in your life and that is all because of

what you go through and it is worth it in the end.

Victoria (1:07:13)
That’s lovely. Yeah, and I’m so pleased that you’re at that place now. It’s so important. And that you’re able to be the mum that you want to be. You know, that’s all any of us want really, isn’t it? To be kind of pleased and proud of ourselves because it is a hard job, you know.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:07:15)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It is, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ it is so hard.

And I just want to, so that it doesn’t sound like, you know, I never get dysregulated. I do. I do. You know, it’s motherhood. I don’t want your listeners thinking that I’ve got it all together because sometimes I don’t, but it’s just in so much, because I took the steps to help myself, you know, I’m in much better place.

and much happier than I was. And it is possible for those listening who might be feeling a similar way, they don’t have to go on feeling that way. There is light at the end of that tunnel, even though it might not feel like it right now.

Victoria (1:08:15)
such a good note to end on. And if people want to connect with you and find out perhaps how they could work with you, where is the best place for them to track you down?

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:08:19)
Yeah?

Yeah, so social media, I’m at DrTasha Underscore Psychologist on TikTok and Instagram, and I have a Facebook page, which is DrTashaWallace. Or they can go to my website, it is www.DrNatashaWallace.co.uk, and they can just get in touch, yeah. Thank you so much.

Victoria (1:08:43)
Brilliant.

This has been such an insightful conversation and I really appreciate you sharing all of your experience with us and all of your expertise on some of the things just that we can do to make those small changes. I think everyone will find that really helpful. So thank you so much.

Dr Natasha Wallace (1:08:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

No, you’re welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Victoria (1:09:08)
Pleasure.